Comic Art Versus Real Art

January 24, 1992

(The following is a transcript of a panel from Non-Con III, held during Christmas in Verona, New Jersey. The topic of the symposium is “Comic Art Versus Real Art”. The panelists are Louis Lance, noted comic book critic and publisher of “Comic Intelligence–The Magazine of Acerbic Comic Absurdities,” and also publisher of the “Uno” comics line; and Matty Michaels, publisher of “Spectacular” comics, the number-one comics line in the country. The moderator, as always, is professional fan Vic Chalker.

VIC: First, I’d like to thank both you gentlemen for taking time out from your busy schedules to join us. The first thing I think we have to do is define our terms. Gentlemen, I put it to you: What is art?

MATTY: Art is what tells a story.

VIC: Maybe I wasn’t specific enough. I meant, “How would you define `fine art.'”

MATTY: Art that tells a story that sells over a million copies.

LOUIS: God, this is pathetic.

VIC: Look, Matty–

MATTY: Oh! Oh, I see what you’re getting at. Fine art.

VIC: Yes, precisely.

MATTY: Well, I’ll tell ya, Vic, I don’t generally get involved in discussions of quality grading. Fine, near mint, mint–we leave that to collectors. We’re just out there trying to publish the most masterful comics we can.

LOUIS: Let me shoot him. Please. Before he procreates and further sullies the gene pool.

VIC: Uh, Louis…maybe you’d care to field this one?

LOUIS: To be blunt, Vic…and you’ll find that I’m not one to prevaricate or obfuscate…the concept of art is something that’s dying in this country. Art is something that elevates the human spirit, comments on the human condition, and will invariably stand the test of time.

VIC: Can you give us any examples of comics that you think will fit that category?

LOUIS: Well, there’s “Beanbag,” “Femmes and Fishnets,” “Window on a Warped World”…

VIC: Pardon me, Louis, but aren’t all those published by your own “Uno” line?

LOUIS: That’s right, Vic. Available at less-blathering comic stores everywhere.

VIC: Can you think of comics published by anyone besides yourself that would constitute “art?”

LOUIS: No.

VIC: No? Not a one?

LOUIS: No. Any comic book with true artistic merit is, by definition, being published by me.

VIC: Well that’s very interesting. Matty…would you agree with Louis’ definition? About art being something that lasts?

MATTY: Sure. That sounds good.

VIC: Is “Spectacular” publishing anything that, in your opinion, will have lasting value?

MATTY: Oh, absolutely. It’s a need that we’ve definitely been dealing with.

LOUIS: I can’t wait to hear this.

MATTY: Yeah, gang, that’s why we’ve been publishing special editions of our classics in air-tight bagged editions.

LOUIS: I knew it.

MATTY: Those things will last for your great-great-grandkids. That enough art for ya, Lou?

LOUIS: I cannot believe that this oaf’s comic line outsells mine one thousand to one. Then again, maybe I shouldn’t be surprised. Commercialization has been nothing but detrimental to our society. It’s blanded out the audiences, stuffing garbage up their nostrils until they can no longer recognize the stench.

MATTY: Now there I gotta disagree with ya, Lou. Our comics don’t have commercials. That’s television.

LOUIS: Oh for crying out–

MATTY: Smart guy like you, don’t know the diff between print and TV. Geez, I dunno. Sure, we got ads…but readers can skip right by th–

LOUIS: Commercialization, you neanderthal yahoo! Pandering to the lowest common denominator for the sole purpose of turning a buck! Letting monetary concerns be the sole dictator of what the great unwashed of this country can hope to be exposed to in the name of art!

VIC: But Louis, is it unreasonable for a publisher to be concerned about the monetary bottom line? He is trying to stay in business, after all.

LOUIS: A publisher has a responsibility as a sentient human being–or whatever Mr. Michaels here is–to not toss shovelful upon shovelful of manure upon the public, even if they’re clamoring for it.

VIC: Well now I’m a little confused here, Louis. You are also the publisher–under other publishing lines–of such titles as “Super Terrific Hero” magazine, and then there’s this one: `Wee Willie and his Wonderful Winkie,” which is little more than smut by any definition. Aren’t you just turning a buck, same as any other publisher?

LOUIS: The difference is that those publications–the need for which I abhor–helps to support my more worthy ventures. Publications that can benefit humanity as a whole. Mr. Michaels and his immoral ilk are simply out to make money for the sake of making money.

MATTY: Yeah, but we aren’t going around pointing fingers and calling names, saying that we hate our audience on moral grounds, but don’t mind taking their money. Least we’re honest.

LOUIS: How splendid. Honest, pandering hacks.

MATTY: We’re not hacks.

LOUIS: Of course you are. Oddly enough, it’s not even a derogatory word, so I don’t understand why you sound offended.

VIC: I always thought of a hack as someone who didn’t care about what they were producing. That they were just going through the motions.

MATTY: Me too.

LOUIS: Hardly. A hack is simply someone who turns out material with his primary concern being that of making a buck at it. He’s not someone with true vision; he’s simply a working stiff with no real artistic invention, working his trade or craft. You would compare the hacks who turn out comics for “Spectacular” to genuine artists in the same way that you would compare a decent carpenter to a gifted architect. Hacks and carpenters can hammer nails straight, but don’t expect them to design lasting works. You can be a good hack.

MATTY: Bull. When we say a guy’s hacking it, we mean he’s not giving it his all. That’s a put down. Ya can’t sit there and say, “Oh, I say this guy’s a hack, but it’s not an insult.” It’s as if I talked about how wonderful and convenient urinals are, and then said that calling a magazine “The Comics Urinal” was intended as flattering.

LOUIS: You’re mixing apples and oranges, although I suppose in your beer circles that might actually pass as humor.

MATTY: I see what you’re all talking about with this “fine art” stuff, and what makes art, and what’s lasting and all that.

LOUIS: Finally.

MATTY: You ask me, all this stuff about what’s art and not, that’s just snobbery. Guys like you, Lou–and you’re a smart guy, I’ll give ya that–but guys like you have lots of learning and education, and you read a lot of books by a lot of smart guys. And you decide that, based on all that, you know what’s real art and what’s not. And you also figure that, since you know so much more about stuff than the average joe, your opinion is not only worth a lot, but theirs is worth nothin’. Which means that anything the average guy likes has gotta less important, less artistic and less good than what you like. All you critics set your critical standards, but what it really boils down to is that it’s just your opinion, and one guy’s opinion is just as good as the next guy’s.

LOUIS: So if one “guy” is a Nobel scientist who says the earth is round, and the other “guy” is a working stiff who says the earth is flat, both are equally valid?

MATTY: Now you’re the one who’s juggling fruit. Facts is one thing. You can back up the earth’s shape with pictures from space. But opinion is just opinion. The regular guy is just as entitled to his art as you are to yours.

LOUIS: The regular guy gets precisely what he deserves: Unremitting swill from people whose only concern is not elevation of the ideal man, but elevation of their stock values. At “Uno” publishing our valued “commodities” are artists, not stocks.

MATTY: So how come your artists are talking about coming on board with us?

LOUIS: Nonsense.

MATTY: It’s true. They’re getting nervous because you keep badmouthing distributors and retailers in “Comics Intelligence”; badmouthing the guys who get your product out there. And the distributors are saying, “Hey, the only reason this guy’s got an audience is because we give him one. Why are we doing this to ourselves?” You’ve made enough enemies–and your “art” books make so little money–that if the distributors felt there was no point in carrying your stuff anymore, you’d be belly-up inside of a month.

LOUIS: My people are loyal to me. They respect that I won’t toe the line of cronyism, and will continue to speak my mind and criticize the offal state of our society regardless of whatever economic guerilla tactics my opponents may employ.

VIC: I think we’re getting off the subject here. A question from the audience? AUDIENCE MEMBER: Could each of you cite an example of what you consider to be a great work of art?

LOUIS: Well, there’s so many…none of them courtesy of Mr. Michaels and his work-for-hire drones, of course. I don’t know. Michelangelo’s rendering on the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel.

MATTY: That was work-for-hire.

LOUIS: Oh for heaven’s–

MATTY: It’s true! The Pope went to him and said, “Hey, Mike, decorate the ceiling for us!” You think Mike did it out of the goodness of his heart? He got paid for it! Heck, he didn’t even get as good a deal as we give.

VIC: How so?

MATTY: He didn’t get his art back.

LOUIS: This is reaching new lows.

MATTY: Why? Because I’m reminding you of the roots of your precious “fine art?” People we consider to be great artists fall into one of two categories: Either there were critics like you around to say what slobs they were so that they never got anywhere; or else they were popular and had wealthy patrons or commissions to keep ’em going. They didn’t set themselves up, like you do, and say, `We’re making art. Look how great we are.’ You go back and tell Bill Shakespeare that a couple hundred years from now, people would still be doing his plays, and he’d’ve laughed in your face.

LOUIS: He would certainly have laughed in yours. But he would hardly have been alone.

VIC: Matty, name a great work of art.

MATTY: Action Comics #1.

LOUIS: Oh for the love of God! You’re comparing the primitive scribblings of two teenagers to a breathtaking masterpiece like the Sistine Chapel?!

MATTY: It elevated the human spirit–kids thrilled to his adventures and dreamed about what it would be like if they had superpowers. It commented about the human condition–it said, `Wouldn’t things be better if we had a guy with superpowers to watch over us?’ Heck, there are whole religions where the basic philosophy isn’t much more than that. And ol’ Superman has staying power–he continues to be one of the great American heroes. It fits all the definitions you came up with.

LOUIS: This entire discussion has been utter rubbish–which means it will probably end up being transcribed into some mindless column somewhere, to be read by the sort of brainless, gibbering boors to which Mr. Michaels caters. As for me, I’ve had more than my share. I ask you all to read “Uno” comics…the only true intelligent exchange of graphic art currently being published.

VIC: We have time for one more question.

AUDIENCE MEMBER: Yes, I want to ask Mr. Lance something about “Uno” comics.

LOUIS: Thank heavens, someone with a modicum of taste.

AUDIENCE MEMBER: Yeah, I want to know if you’re going to be having a big crossover where all the characters in your comics meet each other and have a big fight. You know, you could release multiple editions and it’d be really really good…

(Peter David, writer of stuff, regrets that the transcript ends here rather abruptly. Anyone wishing to help post bail for Louis Lance while he awaits trial on his assault and battery charges can send money care of the Comic Book Legal Defense Fund.)