Saddam is dead. Executed.
First, I’m opposed to capital punishment. Period.
Second, just what Iraq needs: A high-profile martyr to rally around and provide reason for an even more massive explosion of violence than we’ve already seen.
PAD
Saddam is dead. Executed.
First, I’m opposed to capital punishment. Period.
Second, just what Iraq needs: A high-profile martyr to rally around and provide reason for an even more massive explosion of violence than we’ve already seen.
PAD
• 
PAD wrote: “I’m a big believer in Kathleen’s concept: That the murder should be incarcerated for life in a cell while being forced to watch, 24/7, videos of the lives of those he killed. Image after image after image of births, birthday parties, graduations, weddings, over and over and over, with the volume turned way up, so they can experience every laugh, every cry, every moment of celebration. More often than not, murderers dehumanize their victims. This way they spend the rest of their natural existence faced with the inescapable fact that their victims were human beings.”
Works for me. Of course, to my way of thinking these images should be visible everywhere in the murdererer’s cell. Let him or her spend decades “haunted” by those he or she killed.
The part of me that leans toward vengeance would be tempted to go one step further, however. With the exception of emergency medical treatment, a convicted murderer would be isolated from all direct human contact. Visitors? Sure, but he or she couldn’t see them, and could only hear them through a one-way speaker. It would be, in some ways, analogous to the victim’s family visiting his or her grave. The family can “talk” to their loved one, but even assuming there’s some sort of afterlife in which he or she can “hear” what’s being said, the dead loved one can’t reply. Similarly, the murderer could hear news about his or her own family, but they couldn’t hear anything he or she might say in response.
If given the power to put such a system into place, the part of me that leans toward vengeance would not only be tempted to do so, but I’d be sorely tempted to keep the murderer’s family from _both_ seeing and hearing him/her. However, I’d probably not go that far. It would unfairly punish the family members; and they didn’t commit the crime. So, I’d at least let them see him/her.
Also like PAD, I don’t support the death penalty; but like him (and I suspect pretty much anyone) I’d want to take matters into my own hands if anyone harmed someone important to me. And in such a scenario, most murderers would find the electric chair, lethal injection, even the gallows, preferable alternatives to how I’d be tempted to… dispatch them.
But that’s the emotional level. On an intellectual level, I know vengeance ultimately lacks satisfaction. Also, it shouldn’t be left to individuals to mete out justice and/or vengeance. What if you’re wrong?
Rick
The problem with the images of birthdays etc of their victims, is that a truly sociopathetic/sadistic killer would probably enjoy being given such “momentos” of his crimes. That’s why lots of serial killers/serial rapists take trophies from their victims, so that they can relieve the attack later.
Of all the arguments I’ve heard against the death penalty, there is one — and only one — that has ever resonated with me. Human beings are imperfect. Any institutions and systems we create will thus be equally imperfect. If we carry out executions against convicted murderers, sooner or later we will execute the wrong person. It’s happened many times in the U.S., and will continue to happen as long as some states have a death penalty. As others have pointed out, you cannot undo an execution.
That said, I have no pity for Saddam Hussein. He was a vicious piece-of-crap thug who did far worse to people than what was in the end done to him.
I oppose the death penalty on principle. But that doesn’t mean I need to shed any tears when a truly guilty person is executed.
Care to cite one of my comments that qualifies?
My argument depended on the plainly-worded definition written by the person who coined the word. The original definition supported my interpretation of the term and various dictionary definitions you claim I misused. Your simple wish against the facts do not change this.
The reason the thread is infamous was with no contribution by me. You participated in the troll-flood (including a pitiful attempt to mischaracterize Wittgenstein’s aim as language-obfuscation) that prompted a writer who raises money for the CBLDF to shut it down. My posting frequency to it slowed to 3 times in 3 days, and I hadn’t even posted to it for 24 hours when it was shut down.
Then why do you feel the need to persistently mischarcterize what I say?
Pitiful.
Yes, that sums up your posts in a nutshell.
Oh. That big block of text was meant to be 5 paragraphs.
He plainly said the phrases matched. I asked a simple question, and he answered it. He never retracted that simple act. Strike 2.
Considering your documented habit of simply mischaracterizing what I say, care to cite what you are referring to?
Considering your documented habit of simply mischaracterizing what I say, care to cite what you are referring to?
I just asked for one exemple, not 5 strawmen.
Feel free to help Micha find one example of what he keeps accusing me of.
Moving away from the issue of Mike and back to the issue of capital punishment, I like Rick’s and PAD’s distinction between the emotional level and the intellectual level.
But, I must say, I don’t think I like the idea of mentally torturing somebody for his crimes, or physically torturing him. When a crime reaches a certain degree of cruelty, like rapists and serial killers, I don’t want to see them tortured mentally or physically, I’m so disgusted by such person, I want to see them vanish out of existence. So on the emotional level I prefer capital punishment to PAD’s and Rick’s idea.
On the practical level, it sometimes seems to me that prison is a greater torture than death.
But, I have the same concern about capital punishment most people here seem to have, the uncertainty of guilt, that capital punishment is not reversable, the concern that capital punishment is used in a discriminatory way against poor people.
On this topic, I saw the movie Dead Man Walking. [Spoilers ahead].
So long that I, as a viewer, did not know if the convict was actually guilty, I had reservations about him being executed. But when the movie revealed that he was guilty, and the nature of his brutal crime, I felt releaved that such a person no longer existed. But of course, in the real world we don’t have flashback scenes that can show as with complete certainty if and how a crime was committed.
Dead Man Walking as a brilliant piece of film making. Holding the reveal to the end enabled the viewer to feel sympathy for Sean Penn and hope that maybe he could deserve to be spared.
On the other hand, I thought the similar reveal in the Life of David Gale was a load of horse pucky. Maybe it’s a matter of subtlty. The former movie let the viewers get to know the characters and feel for them as people rather than political props. The latter was about as subtle as a sledgehammer to the face.
If I think Saddam Hussein dead is better for the world? No doubt. If I agree with the way it was done? No way.
But, if I recall, a lot of Nazis got hung for the same crimes he did… Of course the only difference is that this particular war isn’t using soldiers, but car bombs and cowardly terrorists who kill innocents. There’s no frontlines.
So, the options? If you kept him alive, there would be always someone wanting to liberate him, using terror as a weapon and killing innocents. If you killed (murdered or whatever) him, you would create a martyr – which was what happened.
So, which was the better option? It was losing deal from the start. Now it’s gone and someone chose option one. No one won, regardless all the right reasons to say Saddam dead is better for the world.
I think it is a lose lose situation.
Kill the man and make him a martyr for more violence. Place him in prison forever and the new government may never truly be accepted.
I am a veteran (served this country proudly) and I don’t see the logic in this war.
I noticed that we didn’t invade North Korea after they detonated a nuke on October 9, 2006. At least in this case WMD exist.
I believe that we (as a country) should vacate the premises tout de suite…
I don’t want to see anymore Americans killed.
Regards:
WSJ3
As an admitted deliberate liar, by what virtue do you continue to debate anyone here?
Whaaaaaaaa…do you ever get tired of being you? You can’t win on wit, you can’t win on the the points, so you resort to dopey stunts. And yet, has anyone here ever shown the slightest indication that they are impressed or convinced?
You manage to obnoxiously fight with people who agree with you on the issues, people who disagree, and anyone in between. You’ve been doing this for years. This is your nature. This is what you are.
And THAT is truly pitiful.
I got a great satisfaction when this man was executed.
I kinda felt a bit sick when McVeigh was-I felt some sorrow that he had wasted his life and could have, had circumstances been different, gone down a different path.
But I shed no cheers for Saddam. I wouldn’t call it happiness, but supreme satisfaction.
and i find the martyr thing a bit weak. Alive, he makes statements to the press, encourages kidnappings for his release, and attacks to free him, and fear among those (who were many-including I think him) who believed he would ultimately get back to power. Punishment can’t be imposed based simply on what may happen later-whether martyrdom or otherwise. Heck, otherwise we couldn’t even arrest a high profile target, after all they may encourage kidnappings and the like.
Anyway, I believe he deserved death, and he got it. Whether the death penatly is appropriate for smaller scale crimes, I’ll leave for another day.
Some interesting things from the news today:
The sources said the U.S. military sought to delay the execution of Saddam until after Id Al Adha. But the sources said Al Maliki insisted that Saddam be executed without delay. He was hanged on Dec. 30.
“Their refrain — and we have heard this before whenever they want to make a point — was ‘It’s our necks. It’s our decision.'” a U.S. officer said.U.S. forces had kept custody of Saddam since they captured him three years ago, partly over fears about his treatment by the Shi’ite Muslim majority he oppressed while in power and now the main force in Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki’s government.
Officials, witnesses and journalists attending his trial over the past year were subjected to rigorous background and security checks before entering the court and U.S. troops handed Saddam over to Iraqi guards only at the last moment on Saturday.
Americans flew him by helicopter from the Camp Cropper jail at Baghdad airport to the former secret police base in the north of the capital where he was hanged after negotiations between Maliki and the U.S. ambassador that lasted late into the night.
The Americans screened an official delegation before escorting them to the execution site.
U.S. envoy Zalmay Khalilzad urged Maliki to delay the dawn execution for two weeks, till after the long Eid al-Adha Muslim holiday, a senior Iraqi government official told Reuters. But he relented when Maliki insisted and provided an authorisation also from Iraq’s Kurdish president, the official said on Monday.
A senior Iraqi court official nearly halted Saddam Hussein’s execution when supporters of a radical Shi’ite cleric and militia leader taunted the former president as he stood on the gallows.
Prosecutor Munkith al-Faroon, who is heard appealing for order on explicit Internet video of Saturday’s hanging that has inflamed sectarian passions, said on Tuesday he threatened to leave if the jeering did not stop —
(Advertisement)
and that would have halted the execution as a prosecution observer must be present by law.
“I threatened to leave,” Faroon told Reuters. “They knew that if I left, the execution could not go ahead.”
Bill, my late birthday gift to you. I give you my New Year’s Mike Policy. This is, in simple terms, the act of skipping all text between seeing the blog generated
Posted by: Mike at…
and then resuming reading again when I see the blog generated
Posted by: (any poster who is not Mike) at…
Works wonders for me. For one thing, I tend to not get dragged into going around in circles in debates that only make any sense on Planet M. It’s also nice as I now tend to only post posts that further the thread or mini debate in the thread or little side posts to people I like rather then flushing down the çráppër time, blog space and debate points by posting responses the Mad One that end up really doing nothing but feeding his need for attention.
You can open this gift or not as you see fit. Me? I’ve found it to be one of the best gifts that I’ve ever given myself. Not as cool as the gifts I just found out about today though. Bug Myers to forward my email to you and you’ll see what I’m burbling on about.
Oh, and be safe this next week. All those shambling things coming back into your care after, what, a week and a half or more off? Do they even remember what a school looks like, let alone how to act in one? Hëll, it used to take us at least a couple of weeks to remember what that funny looking little man in the front of the classroom was supposed to be if we got more then three days in a row off.
🙂
I find it hard to derive “satisfaction” from the death of Saddam Hussein. Saddam was not the world’s first murderous tyrant, nor will he be the last.
Moreover, his execution was more about convenience than about justice. The U.S. was willing to turn a blind eye to Saddam’s crimes when he was useful to us. We toppled his regime because he had in the eyes of the Bush administration outlived his usefulness.
I would like to believe that bringing people to answer for “war crimes” represents a dramatic leap forward for humanity. But I can’t bring myself to ignore the fact that both sides commit atrocities during wartime, but only the vanquished are held accountable for theirs. While I shed no tears for the Nazis who swung from the gallows for their role in the Holocaust, I cannot help but think for the most part trying people for “war crimes” is merely another one of the spoils of war.
Ultimately, I find it hard to believe anyone could take satisfaction in the execution of Saddam because it has not made things better for the Iraqi people. More Iraqis are suffering and dying now than before we toppled Saddam. Was Saddam good for Iraq? Heavens, no. But the anarchy in Iraq is even worse than his tyranny.
I find that unsatisfying.
Like I said, i found it greatly satisfying that he had the noose around his neck, and died. Your mileage may vary. Sure, there are other murderous dictators out there. There are other terrrorists out there too-but it will feel good if and whem OBL gets killed. There are other murderers out there, but it feels satisfying when one of them is captured and convicted and imprisoned. Just like I am sure Hitler’s death, and Nazi trials, felt satisfying to some degree, despite Stalin being alive and having ultimately probably killed more people directly. Just like if you hear some kid was rescued from a kidnapper, there is some joy, despite thousands of other kids still kidnapped. (All the other stuff you wrote, to me, is tangential. Iraq will get beetter only if Iraqis choose to stop killing each other, allies for one administration may change to enemies when circumstances or administrations change, or when someone at the time, like with Stalin, seems better than an alternative that is either worse or more pressing, that’s life, that’s reality).
I can’t deny the feeling I had-pure satisfaction (and some people I know were practically giddy-and no they weren’t right wingers at all). He got what was coming to him, come what may. If Iraq was at peace right now, I would have been extremely happy Saddam’s neck snapped. But I am still satisfied. He seemed to feel fear, and I am glad for that.
The problem, spiderrob8, is that Iraqis have never had the chance to learn to govern themselves. That doesn’t happen overnight. America was under colonial rule for quite some time before we decided to cut our ties with Great Britain. Iraq, on the other hand, had the rug pulled out from underneath it.
So, no, the stuff I mentioned isn’t “tangential.” It’s a direct result of Saddam being removed from power. And it’s why I find it tough to find any satisfaction in his execution.
A murderous dictator is dead, that was a good news break for me, at any rate.
To me, it is not that they couldn’t govern themselves. It’s that a minority, mostly Sunnis, chose to kill their countrymen, rather than except the truth-that they are a minority in that country and their “people” would no longer be the prime movers and shakers, but they could still get a fair piece of the power in the nation, just not ultimate power. They couldn’t accept that. They’ve chosen death and destruction for them, their fellow citizens, their children, etc. Very, very stupid. In the end, despite the casualties we’ve suffered, they are the ones who have and will continue to suffer, greatly, by their refusal to bow to reality, work with other people in the nation, and move forward. Cause in the end, we’ll leave, and they will suffer the consequences of their decisions to move toward chaos.
Or to put it another way, when bad people get what’s coming to them, I can feel satisfaction in that. No, I do not expect it to solve all or even any of the problems. But they’d be there alive or dead. The fact he is dead is, to me, a positive thing. A good thing. There are many others who deserve his fate, but that is neither here nor there. He got what he deserved in the end
Against you, everyone wins on points. As an admitted liar, you have no credibility. A million points times zero is still zero.
Den–I’m right with you with the Life of David Horse Pucky thing.
Bill and Spiderrob’s post above remind me of something that happened the other day. A guy at work was talking about just get it over with and brng our guys home. I was going to reply to him that it’s not that simple, but he’s one of those people that’s utterly convinced his worldview is RIGHT, so I saved my breath and myself the aggravation. Anyway, on to my thought, A lot of people think that either the Founding Fathers signed the Declaration of Independence, then the country sprang into being. It wasn’t until 1783 that the country was completely free of outside influence in regards to rule, then another three to four years AFTER that was the Constitution written and ratified. Creating a new nation from the ashes of an old one is NOT a rapid process. There are a LOT of things to work out. Throw into the equation variables like foriegn insurgency and old-government loyalists, the process can get even more delayed.
BTW, anybody else find the fact that someone actually filmed this somewhat nauseating?
As an infamous internet troll you are simply not significant enough to waste this much time over. Jerry, I’ll take that gift.
I think what pushed me over the line was his reply to Craig.
Feel free to help Micha find one example of what he keeps accusing me of.
This after Craig calls him pitiful. Wow. Anyone who has been here and paid any attention at all knows that Craig can be harsh, Craig can go for the throat, Craig can zing with ther best of ’em–I’ve been the target of a few of them and will possibly be so in the future–but one thing that even a planarian worm could figure out is that Craig does not suffer the people he considers fools lightly.
Yet here is “nutty Mike Leung” (TM), practically begging him to please please pay attention to him. Where does this neediness come from? Who knows? Who cares?
Mike, unable to create a blog that could attract enough readership to make it worth continuing, would rather hijack the efforts of other, more creative people (I could just say “other people”. No point in being redundant).
back in 2000 a young woman was driven to write “A correction from yesterday. Mike Leung (who is making me oh, so very tired) has been calling me a liar because I didn’t ask him to leave the forum; I told him to leave the forum. Apparently this lie has hurt him very deeply. So there you have it: yes, I told him to leave. The end.
There is nothing quite so satisfying as a mail filter set up to send someone’s mail straight into the trash. Really. Try it some time.
Smart woman. Smarter than me. But it’s never too late to smarten up.
Oh, and be safe this next week. All those shambling things coming back into your care after, what, a week and a half or more off? Do they even remember what a school looks like, let alone how to act in one? Hëll, it used to take us at least a couple of weeks to remember what that funny looking little man in the front of the classroom was supposed to be if we got more then three days in a row off.
Oh they were terrible today, and I was little better. Some days the metamorphic processes that turn phyllite to schist just don’t seem that interesting, though the kids DO enjoy saying the word schist.
So what’s your point? That by calling me a troll, your troll-credentials somehow don’t exceed mine?
I didn’t lead a troll-flood prompting a writer who raises money for the CBLDF to shut down a forum thread. And I didn’t hold others to a standard of truth and then admit to lying.
My credibility at least warrants corrections from forum admins where I’m right. Your credibility is zero.
but one thing that even a planarian worm could figure out is that Craig does not suffer the people he considers fools lightly.
As you can see, I love nutshells. 🙂
I know it isn’t a normal feature of blogs, but I would love an ignore feature here. I don’t like to ignore others, but sometimes it just gets to the point where it seems like the only useful solution.
Mike goes on about credibility, and how others are trolling, yet, as he has shown time and time again, the universe revolves around him. So, I think everybody can see why his posts are so skip-worth.
Posted by: Craig J. Ries at January 3, 2007 10:14 AM
As you can see, I love nutshells. 🙂
So do squirrels.
…
They got to you, didn’t they?!?!?!
Posted by: Craig J. Ries at January 3, 2007 10:14 AM
I know it isn’t a normal feature of blogs, but I would love an ignore feature here. I don’t like to ignore others, but sometimes it just gets to the point where it seems like the only useful solution.
True, but our eyes come with the same “function.” I’ve decided to give myself the same gift Jerry C gave to Bill Mulligan: I’m going to stop reading Mike’s posts.
Posted by: Craig J. Ries at January 3, 2007 10:14 AM
Mike goes on about credibility, and how others are trolling, yet, as he has shown time and time again, the universe revolves around him. So, I think everybody can see why his posts are so skip-worth.
Amen, reverend.
They got to you, didn’t they?!?!?!
I think I’ve been scarred for life.
Posted by: Craig J. Ries at January 3, 2007 02:31 PM
I think I’ve been scarred for life.
Cool. I can check “scar Craig J. Ries for life” off of my to-do list.
I believe that as a guilty man can nullify his own right to life, the government of the people is qualified and empowered to judge how or if that man may live out the remainder of his earthly days.
Frankly I’d prefer a brief surge of power through an evil bášŧárd than the dedicated constant energy and resources for supplying a means to continued life for the man.
Can even basic human rights, or the rights of a citizen, be revoked?
Hëll, yes.
“15 years ago, the reported cost to execute a convict was $9 million. The annual cost to jail him was less than $30,000. A murderer jailed at 20 would have to live to 80 for the death penalty to be cost effective. Citing cost as a merit of the death penalty is riculous.”
Five minutes ago I asked myself how tying a noose or sharpening a blade can cost nine million dollars.
Honestly and truly a trip to Home Depot could give me or you the means to execute Saddam Hussein. Regardless of our differing conclusions on the death penalty, your argument about the monetary cost is utter crap.
This forum’s obsession with squirrels is starting to parallel Stephen Colbert’s obsession with bears.
As I’ve said before, I am certain I will go to hëll for starting the running gag about squirrels.
Who do you think it is that tells the bears of our whereabouts? The squirrels!
“This forum’s obsession with squirrels is starting to parallel Stephen Colbert’s obsession with bears.”
It’s not an obsession, it’s a forward looking security policy.
I love the numbers being thrown out around here about Captal Punishment costs with no links to back them up. We’ve gone from $2 million to $9 million on this thread in just a few days.
I let this slide before because of the source, but other people are picking it up now. This post is for the serious posters here.
I’ll go along with maybe $2 million to $5 million, but some of the extreme high ends are just laugh inducing.
“…States must also come to terms with the fact that each execution can cost between $2.5 million to $5 million…”
http://www.law.columbia.edu/law_school/communications/reports/summer06/capitalpunish
“…the extra cost of the in Texas are about $2.3 million per case…”
[PDF link]
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/NY-RCD-Test.pdf
From a 1994 report…
“In Texas, a death penalty case costs taxpayers an average of $2.3 million.”
“In Florida, each execution is costing the state $3.2 million.”
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=45&did=385
“In Los Angeles County, the total cost of capital punishment is $2,087,926.
In Los Angeles County, the total cost of life imprisonment without possibility of parole is $1,448,935.”
http://www.worldpolicy.org/globalrights/dp/dp-cost.html
The only link I could find with a way out there price tag was a way out there case that involved way more resources then the average capitol punishment case would.
“For example, the cost of convicting and executing Timothy McVeigh for the Oklahoma City Bombing (see related links) was over $13 million”
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/ethics/capitalpunishment/against_7.shtml
One for the heck of it…
http://www.closeup.org/punish.htm
There are tons more links that you can Google or Live Search with either “capital punishment costs” or “death penalty cost” and get lots of info. None of them, not even the most anti-death penalty, have claims of the average cost being $6 million to $9 million. Only rare examples like the McVeigh case come close to making those numbers true, but citing these as “average” cases is like saying Kitrina was just an average example of storm damage.
I’ve also notice that most of the anti-death penalty studies don’t really use realistic math. They take the cost of life in prison and multiply it by, say, 50 years with very little adjustments for increased costs in everything involved in keeping someone in jail for 50 plus years. What, food, clothing and bills paid toward the local utilities aren’t going to increase over time?
They also don’t look at the extra costs created by long term increases in the prison population. It may be a somewhat small number per state, but many states already have an overcrowding problem in their prisons. Add more life long guests and you force the state to build new, larger prisons. In most cases, the cost of building a prison could wipe out years worth of cost savings from getting rid of capital punishment.
There’s also added manpower needs to deal with larger prisons or prison populations. Lets say you only need one extra deputy per shift. Three shifts per day is three extra men needed. That’s about $105,000 added to the payroll. That’s $5,250,000 in added payroll over 50 years. And that’s just going by todays costs. That number doesn’t take into account any raise or bonus for the positions over time or the hidden costs that the city or state pays per employee. That final number would likely be closer to $8.5 million.
No, if you want to argue this based on wild numbers, give me links to back the wild numbers. If you give me links, then please link me to a study that a) doesn’t set out to prove a pre-desired position (for either pro or con) and b)one that takes into account real world costs and figures in total.
I love the numbers being thrown out around here about Captal Punishment costs with no links to back them up. We’ve gone from $2 million to $9 million on this thread in just a few days.
I let this slide before because of the source, but other people are picking it up now. This post is for the serious posters here.
I’ll go along with maybe $2 million to $5 million, but some of the extreme high ends are just laugh inducing.
“…States must also come to terms with the fact that each execution can cost between $2.5 million to $5 million…”
http://www.law.columbia.edu/law_school/communications/reports/summer06/capitalpunish
“…the extra cost of the in Texas are about $2.3 million per case…”
[PDF link]
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/NY-RCD-Test.pdf
From a 1994 report…
“In Texas, a death penalty case costs taxpayers an average of $2.3 million.”
“In Florida, each execution is costing the state $3.2 million.”
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=45&did=385
“In Los Angeles County, the total cost of capital punishment is $2,087,926.
In Los Angeles County, the total cost of life imprisonment without possibility of parole is $1,448,935.”
http://www.worldpolicy.org/globalrights/dp/dp-cost.html
The only link I could find with a way out there price tag was a way out there case that involved way more resources then the average capitol punishment case would.
“For example, the cost of convicting and executing Timothy McVeigh for the Oklahoma City Bombing (see related links) was over $13 million”
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/ethics/capitalpunishment/against_7.shtml
One for the heck of it…
http://www.closeup.org/punish.htm
There are tons more links that you can Google or Live Search with either “capital punishment costs” or “death penalty cost” and get lots of info. None of them, not even the most anti-death penalty, have claims of the average cost being $6 million to $9 million. Only rare examples like the McVeigh case come close to making those numbers true, but citing these as “average” cases is like saying Kitrina was just an average example of storm damage.
I’ve also notice that most of the anti-death penalty studies don’t really use realistic math. They take the cost of life in prison and multiply it by, say, 50 years with very little adjustments for increased costs in everything involved in keeping someone in jail for 50 plus years. What, food, clothing and bills paid toward the local utilities aren’t going to increase over time?
They also don’t look at the extra costs created by long term increases in the prison population. It may be a somewhat small number per state, but many states already have an overcrowding problem in their prisons. Add more life long guests and you force the state to build new, larger prisons. In most cases, the cost of building a prison could wipe out years worth of cost savings from getting rid of capital punishment.
There’s also added manpower needs to deal with larger prisons or prison populations. Lets say you only need one extra deputy per shift. Three shifts per day is three extra men needed. That’s about $105,000 added to the payroll. That’s $5,250,000 in added payroll over 50 years. And that’s just going by todays costs. That number doesn’t take into account any raise or bonus for the positions over time or the hidden costs that the city or state pays per employee. That final number would likely be closer to $8.5 million.
No, if you want to argue this based on wild numbers, give me links to back the wild numbers. If you give me links, then please link me to a study that a) doesn’t set out to prove a pre-desired position (for either pro or con) and b)one that takes into account real world costs and figures in total.
From the Philadelphia Inquirer…
N.J. death penalty on way out
http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/16370503.htm
By Troy Graham, Inquirer Staff Writer
There is info in there re costs for NJ as well as the usual two sides of the coin.
And I really liked this one.
“In Los Angeles County, the total cost of capital punishment is $2,087,926.
In Los Angeles County, the total cost of life imprisonment without possibility of parole is $1,448,935.”
So, what’s the total dif in price in Los Angeles County to remove a mad dog killer from society and remove all chances of escapes, changes in parole laws or political winds or chances of his causing injury or death to an employee of the prison system? A mere $638,991.
$638,991. Well, I can see why people who are against the death penalty aren’t using those numbers in their posts. It seems to hit with so much less impact then the million $$$ figures being thrown around here.
Also from World Policy:
There are over 600 California inmates on death row, but there have only been 13 California executions since the death penalty was reinstated in the 1992.
$90 million per year at not even one execution per year is a hëll of a lot more than $9 million.
It sure as hëll beats holding others to a standard of truth, and then admitting to lying yourself.
It beats being a predator.
Jerry, I have to admit I find it equally strange to support or to oppose capital punishment based on the monetary cost.
Also, everybody talks about capital punishment, but takes our current penal system with its prison sentences for granted. I think this system where we send criminals to ‘pay’for their crime by spending a certain amount of time with other criminals and then release them again doesn’t make much sense. It doesn’t seem to accomplish most of its goals. The most brutal criminals I’d rather not see emerging from their cages. The non violent ones shouldn’t even spend one minute in them.
I don’t know what’s the answer. But think the current approach should be reexamined.
The widely varying estimates for the cost of executions raises the question of how these numbers are arrived at.
Do any of the links reveal just what it is that costs so much? Obviously the actual cost of the actual execution can’t account for it. Is it the cost of high priced lawyers for the appeals? Certainly the cost of killing Saddam was less than the cost of keeping him in prison, since the costs would have been identical up to the day he was hung. At that point one could expect that he would be more expensive alive.
I don’t think the cost of the death penalty is terribly persuasive as an argument–I’ve never met a death penalty opponent who would gladly switch sides if only the cost was less. It certainly wouldn’t change my opposition to it.
Yeah, I guess it’s just one of those things. Somewhere along the line we all develope some strongly held beliefs that can never be fully explained to the satisfaction of some.
Fine by me really. You go your way with it and I’ll go mine. I like Kirk’s world and some of you lot like Picard’s world better.
Wussies.
🙂
In Saddam’s case the real question is the political-diplomatic-military cost.
There’s a saying attributed to one of communist China’s leaders, that has been much quoted lately in Israel, and probably also applies to the case of Saddam’s execution.
When asked what he thinks of the French Revolution, the Chinese leader replied that it is too early to say.
…
If the cost of supporting the death penalty to your state is $90 million a year, and your state isn’t even killing 1 convict a year, then the expense of an execution is effectively $90 million.
If your state drops its death penalty, and the cost of housing a non-deathrow inmate is $40,000 a year, you can afford to incarcerate that inmate you would have executed this year for 2,250 years.
If dropping the death penalty had saved the Roman Empire the equivilent expense per crucifixion, Pontius Pilate could have afforded to incarcerate Jesus Christ beyond the lifetime of anyone alive today. Plus it might have saved him a trip to hëll.
To dismiss the cost to the state of supporting a death penalty is ridiculous.
Posted by: Jerry Chandler at January 3, 2007 05:34 PM
I love the numbers being thrown out around here about Captal Punishment costs with no links to back them up. We’ve gone from $2 million to $9 million on this thread in just a few days.
That’s inflation for you.
Posted by: Jerry Chandler at January 3, 2007 09:36 PM
I like Kirk’s world and some of you lot like Picard’s world better.
You realize, of course, that in Kirk’s world the only crime punishable by death is violation of the ban on communicating with or traveling to Talos IV? Moreover, Spock did just that and got away with it.
Or being a computer. Jesus, how many of those things did Kirk blow up? Sentient computers too, they had at least as much personality as your average red shirt.
“…in Kirk’s world the only crime punishable by death is violation of the ban on communicating with or traveling to Talos IV?”
“Or being a computer.”
Those, or being dumb enough to screw with Kirk, his ship or his crew to begin with. Go ahead, be a bad guy with Kirk at the helm. See it the phasers aren’t set for, “laying a smackdown on your candy @$$!!!!”
Actually, Picard could rack up a pretty good body count as well. By the time he was done whining to Guinan, pontificating to Riker or holding meetings while Wesley saved the ship, his opponents often died of old age waiting for him to spring into action. I guess that could count as “killing” an enemy.
I’m not biased towards Kirk, am I?
🙂
So we get a show trial followed by a hasty lynching before Saddam’s put on trial for the charge that actually counts? The one that might embarrass Rumsfeld and his ilk? The only person in this shameful exercise showing any dignity being Saddam.
Yeah, that’s going to demonstrate commitment to rule of law and civil rights. Really going to make that nutter think twice before strapping the dynamite on.