I don’t typically do this, but IDW is planning a special edition of the first thirteen issues of “Fallen Angel” (slated for release in late May) and it’s a major enough undertaking that I thought I’d plug it here. If you’re interested in getting a copy, I very much suggest you inform your retailer now since I doubt many will order copies just to have on hand. I know the price is a little steep, but–as is always the case with this series–ain’t nobody on our end getting rich from it, and we’re doing everything we can to make this edition worth the price, including an original short story by yours truly.
Fallen Angel: The Premiere Collection
Peter David (w); JK Woodward (a)
Peter David’s critically acclaimed series, Fallen Angel, receives the Premiere treatment here, in this deluxe, oversize hardcover edition. Included here are the first 13 issues of the comic book, along with an all-new prose story written by series creator David, the initial Fallen Angel proposal, an extended cover gallery, an elaborate description of artist J.K. Woodward’s artistic process, never-before-seen sketches, and more, offered in this special oversize, hardcover-with-dustjacket collection.
HC w/ Dustjacket • FC • 320 pages • 12.5” x 8.125”• $75.00 • ISBN: 978-1-60010076-5
• 
Dude, I love your stuff and I like the series, but $75.00 is a bit steep. Are they going to do a less $$$$ softcover edition down the road?
OK, I admit that I live in a very small town in the middle of nowhere and have been living under a rock but….Can someone give me a brief synopsis of what Fallen Angel is about? My comic shop has said that they can get this but that they know absolutely nothing about it. I know that I can go online and find this out, but I want a fans perspective before I buy a 75.00 book. Of course if PAD wrote it it has got to be good.
James
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallen_Angel_%28comics%29
for a not bad summation of the series
Peter, I hope you don’t mind what might be a dumb question… Are these the first 13 IDW issues, or the first 13 of the DC volume?
Steven-
It is the IDW series and that was not a dumb question.
Kath
PAD, already have mine on order (and, just to prove how much of a masochist I am, I’ve also got the $50 “Art of Angel” HC on order).
I’m hoping the book will match the production level that IDW gave Eric Shanower’s “Oz” HC collection last year. THAT was one absolutely beautiful collection (even beyond Shanower’s gorgeous artwork).
“Steven-
It is the IDW series and that was not a dumb question.”
What she said. And just remember, there are no stupid questions; only stupid people.
PAD
I already ordered this.
I realy wish it was autographed. That would make it perfect.
Actually, Chris and I are discussing doing a tip-in sheet that JK and I would both sign.
PAD
I’m a major fan of all things PAD, but 75 bucks is entirely out of my price range. Any chance the short story will appear elsewhere. I’d hate to become homeless in order to afford the book for the story.
Thanks for that info Peter. Signing it would really make it a complete package.
Thanks again.
“I’m a major fan of all things PAD, but 75 bucks is entirely out of my price range. Any chance the short story will appear elsewhere. I’d hate to become homeless in order to afford the book for the story.”
If we’re offering the story exclusive to this particular format, and it provides an incentive to some folks to purchase it, it just wouldn’t be fair to have it appear elsewhere.
PAD
Can you also order this through the IDW website? or through my local Comic Store?
I imagine so. Also, I’d think, through Amazon or your local Borders.
PAD
Actually, I just checked on Amazon.com. They have it listed at a marked down price of $47.25.
PAD
Is the original proposal there in all its complete spoilery goodness, or are there going to be excisions or annoying fake censorship bars going over things that you haven’t revealed as of yet? And I know it’s solicitationese, but “and more”? As the writer, do you know the “and more” or is that still being worked out?
Posted by shadowquest
OK, I admit that I live in a very small town in the middle of nowhere and have been living under a rock but….Can someone give me a brief synopsis of what Fallen Angel is about? My comic shop has said that they can get this but that they know absolutely nothing about it. I know that I can go online and find this out, but I want a fans perspective before I buy a 75.00 book. Of course if PAD wrote it it has got to be good.
You might want to track down the DC collection(s?) first to get an idea as to what the character and her setting are – the IDW issues kind of dive into the middle of the story, assuming that the reader either knows or won’t mind not a lot of the back story.
(And, no, i am not saying that this is necessarily a Bad Thing, just that it happened.)
Will turn the info over to the library. April is the last big push for library purchasing as the fiscal year runs out, so if you can’t afford it, get out there and nag your library into buying it (get 1 friend (or enemy) to go in every day and fill out a request form; library purchases are consumer driven, so start nagging!)
“Is the original proposal there in all its complete spoilery goodness, or are there going to be excisions or annoying fake censorship bars going over things that you haven’t revealed as of yet? And I know it’s solicitationese, but “and more”? As the writer, do you know the “and more” or is that still being worked out?”
It’s unexpurgated, including stuff that was subsequently changed. It’s the draft that was used to sell the series to DC. I thought of updating it but decided in the interest of historical accuracy to leave it as it was.
PAD
I wouldn’t consider this for anything else. Titles are good, but I can almost never justify dropping $75 dollars on thirteen issues with extras. That’s why I’m not going to be buying any DC Absolutes or anything like that.
…But for Fallen Angel? I think I just might.
Well, I bought the first 13 issues, the first trade, and now I just placed an order for the premiere collection. Let it not be said that I haven’t supported this book.
I ordered my copy through mailordercomics.com. I love oversized hardcovers, so this is right up my alley.
“Actually, I just checked on Amazon.com. They have it listed at a marked down price of $47.25.”
Ouch… thanks. As a retailer who ordered several shelf copies, and hopes to be able to move them (and can’t reduce my orders at this point) I thank you for sending readers to an online discounter (amazon) who doesn’t support the book in a monthly basis…
“Ouch… thanks. As a retailer who ordered several shelf copies, and hopes to be able to move them (and can’t reduce my orders at this point) I thank you for sending readers to an online discounter (amazon) who doesn’t support the book in a monthly basis…”
Whattaya want from me, Jerry? On the one hand I’ve got fans saying it’s too expensive for them to buy, so I point out an alternative, and now I’ve got retailer complaints. I mean, geez, we’re running “Friends of the Angel” lists in the book to get word out to fans of retailers who are supporting the book regularly–basically providing free advertising–which is more than most other indies do for comic shops.
PAD
“Whattaya want from me, Jerry? On the one hand I’ve got fans saying it’s too expensive for them to buy, so I point out an alternative, and now I’ve got retailer complaints.”
Either the book is worth $75 or it isn’t. People complaining about the expense shouldn’t come into it if the book is worth $75. It’s easy to point out the the price point is in line with many of the hardcover slipped cased books coming out from DC and Image, and it actually a bit cheaper than many of them. Regardless, It does shoot the retailers in the foot, and without us stocking the monthly books, there is no tpb or slip cases to be sold on Amazon, so if people want to support you, and make sure your books are on store shelves, they need to support the stores that stock your monthly titles. TPB and Hardback sales are essential parts of the sales cycle for comic book stores (surely I’m not telling you anything you don’t already know).
Out of curiosity, I’ve yet to see the “Friends of the Angel” lists in the books (has that started yet)?
Jerry Wall,
“Either the book is worth $75 or it isn’t. People complaining about the expense shouldn’t come into it if the book is worth $75.”
Hey, guess what? I complained because I like PAD’s work, want the book and can’t afford to shell out the $75.00. I like what is being offered, but I have responsibilities that restrict what I can and cannot spend on luxury items.
Besides, if PAD hadn’t said something, then one of us would have. I saw his post only a few minutes after he posted it when I swung by to post about deepdiscount.com’s price on the book. Amazon’s was better by a buck so I didn’t post. If he hadn’t posted and I hadn’t found it on DD, then someone else would have found one of those sites or some other site and posted it. It’s just another wonder of the Internet Age.
“It’s easy to point out the the price point is in line with many of the hardcover slipped cased books coming out from DC and Image, and it actually a bit cheaper than many of them.”
Yeah, and it’s just as easy to point out that it doesn’t matter. I love Sandman. I had a major geek out moment about a month ago in Books -A-Million when I saw a really cool hardcover collection of the series. Then I saw the price. Back on the shelf it went. Now, no offense to PAD by saying this in his metaphorical house here, Sandman wins the top spot competition for my top pick lists over PAD’s comic book works. I’m still not shelling out $75.00 for that either.
Even the DeepDiscount.com price made me think twice. I have bills, a wife and a child on the way. Jenn can’t work right now so it’s up to me to not get too stupid with unnecessary expenditures. $75.00 for a book, no matter how good it is, is out of the question.
“Regardless, It does shoot the retailers in the foot, and without us stocking the monthly books, there is no tpb or slip cases to be sold on Amazon, so if people want to support you, and make sure your books are on store shelves, they need to support the stores that stock your monthly titles.”
I do, on the monthly titles. So do others. I and others also grab special items (statues, figures, cards, etc.) from the comic shops when we can. But we’ve all passed up on something we wanted because it was out of budgets and price ranges. At least this way, IDW gets sales that it otherwise wouldn’t have and that may help them, PAD, the series and you out in the long term.
“At least this way, IDW gets sales that it otherwise wouldn’t have and that may help them, PAD, the series and you out in the long term.”
The sales from Amazon and other deep discounters will help IDW and PAD as they are getting paid for the book. It will not help LCS in the long or short term as a LCS will lose sales to discounters. This makes stores less likely to carry this type of high end product when it is purchased non-returnable and the customers that are most likely to purchase it will find the best deal from a discounter who can buy the product on a returnable basis
As for helping the series, as a LCS owner, I am less willing to recommend or push a product when I know that a creator recommends that customers interested in the product seek out discounters for it. This tends to turn a book that I will order for the shelf into a special order only book. I can not see that as being a help to the series.
John Harter
Waterfront Comics
“The sales from Amazon and other deep discounters will help IDW and PAD as they are getting paid for the book. It will not help LCS in the long or short term as a LCS will lose sales to discounters.”
They might lose sales for mega high priced stuff, but not for many other things. Convenience often overrides frugalness when the prices are low. Most people I know will order a $20.00 TPB from their LCS that they know they could get for $17.00 at something like Deepdiscount.com or Amazon.com because they know that they can get it on the day it comes out, they don’t have to do anything extra or unusual with their routine to get it and people do kind of have some loyalty to a good LCS and its owner. But a $75.00 book is something else entirely. I’m not buying it from my LCS. Had I not found it on the net for a better price, I wouldn’t be buying it at all. You don’t get the sale, my LCS doesn’t get the sale, IDW doesn’t get the sale and I don’t get my book. Really great option there where everybody loses.
And it will help the LCS in the long run. Those sales that you’re not getting are still helping IDW to stay in business and maybe grow a bit. Stronger publishers and better variety always help in the long run. The shops that I’ve seen that are doing the best are the ones that have been able to use the less then mainstream books to attract buyers that wouldn’t be caught dead picking up your average spandex book. Those buyers, once there, pick up the odd item here and there for themselves or for a friend. It also means that someone may not decide to skip buying something else from you that month that’s outside their standard pull list because they broke their bank on a $75.00 book.
“As for helping the series, as a LCS owner, I am less willing to recommend or push a product when I know that a creator recommends that customers interested in the product seek out discounters for it.”
Really? And it’s better for a LCS owner to tell buyers to shell out more then they can afford or just skip it all together? Break their bank for you or go to hëll? I’m not sure I would be all that interested in patronizing a shop where that attitude seems to have a home. And realize it or not, that’s how what you’re saying can be read.
It’s funny, but between this blog, CBG and other interviews, I’ve seen PAD make countless statements to fans about supporting retailers and your LCS. Then you want to just flush all that because he pointed out to several bloggers WHO SAID THAT THEY WOULDN’T/COULDN’T BY THE BOOK AT $75.00 where they could get it for far less then that. He told people who WEREN’T going to buy the book (if we had been local to your store) from you to begin with due to the price how they could afford it. You would have gotten nothing before, but you’re making a stink because you’re not going to get the sale now. You’ve lost nothing, but we’ve got our book.
You have needs. You’ve got to turn a profit. I understand this. Guess what? We have budgets. We have to watch our bottom line every bit as much as you do. It won’t kill you if your customers don’t bust their budgets. And anybody who gets this book somewhere other then their LCS is still going to support their LCS with other sales that don’t break them, really cool specialty items, their regular pull lists and certainly for carrying the regular series.
“But a $75.00 book is something else entirely. I’m not buying it from my LCS. Had I not found it on the net for a better price, I wouldn’t be buying it at all.”
So you do not feel that this book is worth $75? If the MSRP had been the $48 that Amazon is selling it for, would you then have looked for a better discount? Like Mr. Wall siad, the book is either worth the MSRP or it is not.
“The shops that I’ve seen that are doing the best are the ones that have been able to use the less then mainstream books to attract buyers that wouldn’t be caught dead picking up your average spandex book.”
I agree. I am proud to run a store like that.
John Harter
Waterfront Comics
PAD,
Any chance that if I bought a copy I might be able to mail it to you (with a paid return package, of course) and have you sign it for me? Never hurts to ask.
Garrett (the guy who pointed you towards Amazon for your stolen Garmin)
Wow, PAD – dámņëd if you do, dámņëd if you don’t, eh? Talk about rock and hard place.
Thing is, I can’t quite understand why people don’t realize a couple of things:
1) it’s not like no one would have thought “Amazon offers discounts” if PAD hadn’t mentioned it
2) it’s not like someone was going to buy from a local shop, changed their mind, and went to Amazon – it was “either I find it for less or I don’t buy it”… so PAD should get no money in solidarity with,…comic shop owners? I’m thinking there’s a logic train missing here.
3) if a comic shop owner is looking for authors and distribution centers to make sure customers buy from them and no where else, they’re not doing their job well – and this is from the perspective of someone who worked the shop side of the business for years. Artists might provide the product, but you provide the bait and the reason for the loyalty. If you’re so threatened by discount shops like Amazon, look to your own practices and figure out what you’re doing wrong.
(I obviously woke up on the wrong side of the bed this morning!)
I mentioned it to my retailer and he said he saw it and his reaction was why didn’t he post this before the orders had to go in. he missed it I missed it. so it’s great we know it’s there. The problem is he can’t guarantee me a copy. I have to hope that he can get it now.
Well …
1) I buy the issues …
2) I buy the trades …
Had I known this sort of format would be coming out I would have laid off buying the trades.
But I feel I can only own the same material so many times. Even if it is Lee …
I get that I’m probably grabbing the tiger by the tail here, but since I do have the retailer’s perspective coupled with a lifelong PAD fan’s perspective, I do feel the need to chime in.
We retailers aren’t stupid. We know that our customers often go to discount sites to bypass retail prices. And at the end of the day, we don’t really blame them. I’ve been doing this my entire adult life and I can count the number of retailers I’ve known that I would characterize as “wealthy” on one hand with several fingers left over. We love a bargain almost as much as we love to sell good work.
The difference is that PAD himself pointed it out. Had any one of his fans chimed in and said, “I found it cheaper at Amazon”, we would have understood and quietly hoped that PAD would have backed it up with, “I hope if you can afford it, you’ll go to your LCS. Any LCS that has this on the shelf is obviously supportive of the series and deserves your support more than any online discounter.” And, you’re right, he has said that countless times.
Nobody’s saying that you should ‘buy this from your LCS or go to hëll’ (and are those really the only two options?), but it always stings a little when we see creators that we work hard to support everyday (thereby increasing our bottomline) make public statements pushing fans to a discounter. Does he work hard to support those of us who support the series? Absolutely. And if some of the creators who have had nothing nice to say about he Direct Market had done this, we probably wouldn’t be having this conversation. But, good friends tell each other the truth.
As I said, I’ve been a fan of PAD for decades. And I will continue to be a fan for as long as he is abusing a keyboard. And I will gladly recommend the FA hardcover that will have a proud place on our shelves for every one of the seventy-five dollars it is worth.
-Atom!
Brave New World Comics
“And if some of the creators who have had nothing nice to say about he Direct Market had done this, we probably wouldn’t be having this conversation. But, good friends tell each other the truth.”
All right. If that’s the case, then here’s the simple truth: Support for the Premiere edition among direct distributors has been below tepid. Sub-tepid. To frame it statistically: For every one retailer here who is asserting that he’s ordered it for his store, by my estimation, fifteen retailers have ordered none. Zilch. Zero. Nada. The fans above who talked about their retailers “missing it” or “not knowing anything about it”–those are the vast, vast, vast majority.
I would love to be able to depend 100% on local comic shops…but even the monthly title isn’t carried by the majority of shops that stick only to Marvel/DC/Image. The retailers who are complaining here that pointing out Amazon’s carrying the book is somehow determinental or disrespectful are ignoring a basic truth: The odds are sensational that for any given fan here, his local shop won’t be carrying the book. So if they’re going to buy it at *all*, it will be from Amazon.
Naturally I would far prefer that customers go to local comic shops. But if the local comic shop isn’t going to carry it–and based on our current numbers, the odds are heavily against it–then Amazon is the fastest and most convenient direction to send them.
PAD
John Harter: “So you do not feel that this book is worth $75? If the MSRP had been the $48 that Amazon is selling it for, would you then have looked for a better discount? Like Mr. Wall siad, the book is either worth the MSRP or it is not.”
And another one watches wide eyed as THE major point of one of the things I said sails right over his seemingly clueless head. I say again, and only just this one more time, that the book may well be worth $75, BUT I CAN’T AFFORD TO SHELL OUT THE ÐÃMNÊÐ MONEY!! I can’t afford to drop $75 on the book no matter how much I feel that it may well be worth every dámņëd penny. Do I think it’s worth it? Hëll, yeah. Doesn’t change the fact that I can’t affor it no matter how I feel about it.
Let me ask you something. Think about the last few movies you bought. Did you pay the MSRP or did you get it at a discounted price online, from a discounter like Best Buy or at Wal-Mart on sale? The average new release DVD has a MSRP of about $25.95 to $29.95. Do you by your DVDs, even of your pick for best movie ever, at the discounted price or do you decide that you favorite movie must be worth every penny of its MSRP and go out of your way to find a place where you have to shell out the $29.95? Odds are that you pick it up at Best Buy or Wal-Mart or pre-order it online for $19.95.
I think the book is great. I think the extras are awesome. I think it’s worth every penny. I can’t afford the MSRP. I’m getting it at deepdiscount.com because that’s what I can afford. And it’s really no different then you buying DVDs or anything else out there that was discounted to a price below the MSRP. You buy things at the best price you can because it often is what your budget allows. Same here.
Atom!: “Nobody’s saying that you should ‘buy this from your LCS or go to hëll’ (and are those really the only two options?), but it always stings a little when we see creators that we work hard to support everyday (thereby increasing our bottomline) make public statements pushing fans to a discounter.”
All I was saying is that the attitude that came across in his post could be read like that and does kinda came across that way. Thing is, I didn’t get that vibe until the second half of his post.
“As for helping the series, as a LCS owner, I am less willing to recommend or push a product when I know that a creator recommends that customers interested in the product seek out discounters for it. This tends to turn a book that I will order for the shelf into a special order only book. I can not see that as being a help to the series.”
See, that came off to me as kind of petty. Creator tells fans who said they can’t afford $75 out of their budget for a special collection of his regular book where they might be able to afford the product. Those fans are now able to purchase something that they would not have been able to before. Along comes a comic shop owner who makes a subtle little threat about maybe cutting back on the orders for the creators regular book. That vibe left a bad taste in my mouth and I, maybe badly, responded to it.
Atom!, I can see where you’re coming from. Your shops are your livelihood. Your bottom line supports your family and puts food on the table. But my bottom line says that I can only afford to spend but so much of my money per month without doing damage to my ability to support my family and put food on my table. Now, that doesn’t mean that I’ll go to DD or Amazon every time something extra comes out. Like I said, most times convenience trumps frugalness with finances when your only looking at a $20 or $25 item and the discounters are only going to save you $3. LCS wins that one hands down. But this is a $75 item and an almost $30 difference. And, like I said above, I still think that it’s better for the publisher, the creator and even you guys in the long run if I buy the book at a discounter rather then not buy it at all.
Posted by: Jerry Wall at April 5, 2007 03:31 PM
Either the book is worth $75 or it isn’t.
Uh… no. In a capitalist economy, it’s not that simple. A unit of a given commodity is worth whatever an individual is willing to pay for that unit at a particular place and time. That’s why back issue prices can in some cases vary wildly from comics shop to comics shop.
Posted by: Jerry Wall at April 5, 2007 03:31 PM
People complaining about the expense shouldn’t come into it if the book is worth $75.
If they can’t afford it, they can’t afford it. I’m sure a Corvette is worth every dámņ penny but I can’t afford one. So I drive a Buick I bought used from my Dad.
Posted by: Jerry Wall at April 5, 2007 03:31 PM
Regardless, It does shoot the retailers in the foot, and without us stocking the monthly books, there is no tpb or slip cases to be sold on Amazon, so if people want to support you, and make sure your books are on store shelves, they need to support the stores that stock your monthly titles. TPB and Hardback sales are essential parts of the sales cycle for comic book stores (surely I’m not telling you anything you don’t already know).
But how often does this kind of situation come into play? As Jerry Chandler pointed out, in most cases the discount on trade paperbacks at places like Amazon.com is trumped by the convenience of getting the book at the LCS, not to mention the avoidance of shipping charges.
Posted by: John Harter at April 6, 2007 02:20 AM
As for helping the series, as a LCS owner, I am less willing to recommend or push a product when I know that a creator recommends that customers interested in the product seek out discounters for it.
Perhaps you are unaware of the incredible brand recognition enjoyed by Amazon.com. It’s not like Peter blurted out a well-kept secret.
Posted by: John Harter at April 6, 2007 02:20 AM
This tends to turn a book that I will order for the shelf into a special order only book. I can not see that as being a help to the series.
How does that make any business sense? You’re suggesting that you will register your displeasure about Amazon.com’s price advantage on the hardcover by withdrawing support from a monthly book… which is the very place that you enjoy an advantage over Amazon! See, I doubt anyone goes to Amazon to get the monthly. Even if they offer it, it wouldn’t be worth it due to the shipping charges. What you’re threatening to do won’t hurt Amazon in the least little bit… but it will ironically weaken you in the one place where comics shops enjoy a competitive advantage.
“If they can’t afford it, they can’t afford it. I’m sure a Corvette is worth every dámņ penny but I can’t afford one. So I drive a Buick I bought used from my Dad.”
Right. And if GM came out an announced publicly that the car was only worth $20,000, how many people will pay $70,000? And how many buyers would feel they are being gouged by the local dealerships.
Look, it’s real simple. Amazon.com exists, as do many, many other discounters. But there is a big difference between people knowing they exist, and the CREATOR of a product pointing them out, and the pricing. Even if it was a simple “Um, check on Amazon.com” from PAD, then it might have been better. But when he (esentially) recommends Amazon, and points out the $48 price, then he’s saying that’s the quality of the book, and what it’s worth.
So now, retailers are overpaying. I’m hoping IDW revises the price, and lets retailers pay less. Because otherwise, we’re paying way too much for a book worth less than $50.
And yes, I know very few stores carry the series. Which makes this all the more of a problem. If people can’t find the book, then the “friends of the angel” thing ain’t helping. Regardless, without knowing exact numbers I can still estimate that I’m probably personally responsible for about 1% of the TOTAL fallen angel sales from IDW. I bet Atom! is another percent or two. That’s a pretty significant chunk. When there are maybe 200 stores that activly support my independent project, I’m gonna do what I can to support those shops.
“When there are maybe 200 stores that activly support my independent project, I’m gonna do what I can to support those shops.”
As am I. Whether you think “Friends of the Angel” is effective or not, I *did* do that, and I did it at the suggestion of a retailer. And I couple years back I produced, out of my own pocket, autographed bookplates to encourage readers to go to their LCS and pick up the trade paperbacks. I have, in short, busted my ášš to send people to their LCS for this book for five years now.
And the *one* time, in direct response to several people saying they simply can’t afford the cover price–and fully aware that the vast majority of stores aren’t carrying one single copy–I mentioned that Amazon is also carrying it discounted, I get retailers suddenly saying I’m shooting them in the foot or that they’re going to retaliate by no longer ordering shelf copies of the monthly. I mean, what the hëll? Do you seriously think that Amazon or IDW sent me e-mail asking me to plug the discounting? No. I went and I checked and lo and behold I found it all by myself. So I mentioned it in passing.
Yes, I appreciate the (frankly handful of) stores who have enthusiastically supported the series. And I have responded to that and tried to return that support in every way that I humanly can, ranging from endlessly flogging the book on the internet to developing crossover stories to generate interest (the upcoming “Shi” three parter) to producing promotional items out of pocket. And it sure ain’t because I’m making a lot of money on the project, because I’m doing just the opposite. I’m doing it because I feel passionately about the series, and I want as many people to read it as possible. And if mentioning the easily accessible fact that Amazon is discounting the Premiere Edition is considered to be undercutting retailers, well, okay. I can’t change how you feel. But with everything else I’ve done to help retailers, I’d like to think the scale tilts sufficiently in that direction to warrant something other than veiled threats of retaliation. I’d LIKE to think that.
PAD
And just so you’re clear, everything I said here was without any sort of extreme anger or hate. I wasn’t foaming at the mouth, I wasn’t leading an anti-pad charge in my store.
The fact of the matter is, not much you can say or do here would cause me to reduce my orders. As a dyed in the wool “Bushy” if I was going to change my order policies based on your comments, it would have happened long ago ;). I order based on sales trends, history, and customer demand. I might take a little more of a risk on something based on my personal interests, but I’m not going to suddenly run out and cut the orders, or full FA from the shelves. Hopefully noone got that impression (at least from me).
So what I was pointing out was merely my concerns, not any sort of veiled threats of retaliation. Hopefully, you’re always open to hearing retailer concerns.
In the interests of avoiding another one of these arguments a couple months down the road, I feel I should mention that IDW is also soliciting a similar hardcover collection of PAD’s “Spike” titles for June. (I have no stake in this whatsoever–no pun intended–except that I ran across the solicitation, and the earlier potential customers know about it, the easier it will be to arrange to get it from their retailers.)
Jerry Wall: “Right. And if GM came out an announced publicly that the car was only worth $20,000, how many people will pay $70,000? And how many buyers would feel they are being gouged by the local dealerships.”
Actually, a lot of people I’ve known would if it meant that they could get it on the day of release, be the first person on their block to own it or just plain old had a lot more money then guys like me. Same with the book in question.
Hey, even I would be putting in the order through my LCS if my financial circumstances were different. Prior to being married and owning a home, my financial responsibilities didn’t take as much of a bite out of my budget as it does now. Way back when, I would have spent the $75 vs the $48 because my LCS would get me the book by the day of release, there was less risk of the book not shipping at all due to be a “special order item” as it is at Books-A-Million, Amazon, Deepdiscount.com or some other online discounters and the extra $30 that month wouldn’t do as much damage as it could now.
Jerry Wall: “So now, retailers are overpaying. I’m hoping IDW revises the price, and lets retailers pay less. Because otherwise, we’re paying way too much for a book worth less than $50.”
Hey, I wish you the best of luck in getting better deals for yourself and your customers. Thing is, from my past retail experience (not comics) on the supplier side of the equation, I’m pretty sure the only way you could get an Amazon level deal is by promising Amazon level sales and thus Amazon level bulk purchases from the publisher. Simply put, you can’t. What you can do is promote the things that you can do/provide that giants like Amazon can’t. But, from some of your past posts here, I’m not telling you anything that you don’t already know and do.
Jerry Wall: “So what I was pointing out was merely my concerns, not any sort of veiled threats of retaliation.”
The references made, at least by me, to subtle or veiled threats wasn’t you. That was in response to John Harter’s post from April 6, 2007 02:20 AM.
Jerry Wall: “So what I was pointing out was merely my concerns, not any sort of veiled threats of retaliation.”
The references made, at least by me, to subtle or veiled threats wasn’t you. That was in response to John Harter’s post from April 6, 2007 02:20 AM.”
What he said.
PAD
Just wanted to make sure that you knew, since I’m the one who started all this, that a pile on, or threats, were not my intent.
For the sake of clarity, I would like to everyone to know my special order only comment was meant for future releases of premium hardcovers like the thread was originally intended. I plan to stock Fallen Angel at the same level that I have done in the past, based on customer interest. Sorry, if that was not clear in my earlier post and for any ill will that it may have caused.
My other points have been covered more eloquently by Jerry and Atom!.
Thank You,
John Harter
Waterfront Comics
Is it okay if I ask why the book is so expensive? Is it going to be table top sized like DC’s absolute books? Even 48 dollars is a lot of money for thirteen issues.
PAD:
I get the frustration. I also get that you were only doing what we in the sales business call ‘answering an objection’. The only part I disagree with is pointing out the actual discounted price (or to use another trade term, ‘pitching a sales point’) for one particular source on a fan forum. Normally, I’d be having this conversation with you off board, but the cat’s out of the bag on this one and, frankly, I’m finding this whole conversation pretty interesting.
And 15 to 1 doesn’t sound that bad to me. It is, coincidentally enough, very close to the average number of copies we sell of any given GN versus the initial order. So, long term sales is where its at.
Jerry Chandler:
“All I was saying is that the attitude that came across in his post could be read like that and does kinda came across that way.”
Well then, thank you for clarifying. Sometimes salient points can get lost in rhetoric.
I also get your point of view. And like I said, most of us are living on a pretty slim margin, so yeah, we appreciate a good deal. While I agree with Jerry Wall’s point about the value of things, the issue that has us posting is the manner in which the recommendation was presented. I don’t know what you do for a living, Jerry, so go along with me for a minute. Imagine if your manager at work told another manager in your department that someone else could do your job for cheaper than you would. Would you say to yourself, “Maybe I need to take a voluntary paycut so that this issue won’t come up again”? or “If they can’t afford me they don’t need the job done anyway” Or, “He’s right. That other guy is a better value!” I doubt it. You’d probably get a little irritated that he brought it up do to your years of service and support and, if he was your friend, you’d probably try to take him aside and ask him not to. The way I read this, that’s what’s happening here. Amped up rhetoric put aside.
Jerry Wall:
I looked it up, if ICV2 is to be trusted, we sold .26% of the total sales of a recent issue of FA (I’d say which one, but some info I’m not comfortable sharing). Is that a lot? Maybe not, but it did justify the purchase order for the HC. That’s not always the case.
PAD:
It feels like we’re getting to the end of this flare up and I have to mention that I’ve seen this argument get out-of-hand a lot quicker and never reach any resolution. Good group of folks you’ve gathered here. I’ll be back.
“Imagine if your manager at work told another manager in your department that someone else could do your job for cheaper than you would.”
Geez, I’m the worst person you could have come up with to try that one. I don’t always seem to react normally to things like that. It’s been done to me twice before by employers in two different work environments. My attitude both times was to tell them to either give me some notice and do it or leave me alone. One did, and I actually went on to a better job because of it, and one didn’t. I don’t worry about that much these days. No one who has ever seen a cops salary would make that threat.
Besides, it’s not really a valid comparison. You’re trying to compare a possibly major, permanent and life altering threat to not being able to afford shelling out for a luxury item.
Look, I understand your POV in this. I’m not quite sure I understand where you’ve drawn your line though. If PAD had just said that Amazon had a cheaper price, the several of us who said we couldn’t afford it would have gone and looked at the site and seen the $47.25 price that they were offering. I’m not sure that I see a difference between that and just saying that Amazon has it for $47.25. Either way, we’re checking it out. But then, I’m not looking at it as a retailer.
I’m also kind of unclear on how this is any different then how most comic shops operate. Comic shops have for years now offered discounted cover prices as an incentive to become a regular customer with a regular pull list. Why pay cover price on the news stands or at the book stores when you LCS can cut you 10% to 20% off? Comic shops also love to be able to offer exclusive goodies that customers can’t get with subscriptions or by buying the books somewhere other then a comic shop. And comic shop owners LOVE IT when a creator talks up that aspect of their product or points out the bonuses for buyers who seek out their LCS. This time, a creator pointed out those perks about somewhere else. Now, if it was SOP by PAD I could see where you could have a valid reason for putting out a contract to have his car egged and wrapped in toilet paper one night. But it’s not. This was a kind of rare event where PAD didn’t focus support towards everybody’s LCS.
It was a rare one off. Cut him some slack for doing it and cut us some slack for needing to have it done in order to be able to afford the book. Like I said before, most of us are going to hit up our LCS for just about everything else you can think of. Just not this one. And you’ve still got sales on the book that will come in from the people who have the extra money and would rather deal with the convenience and guarantees of product availability that a LCS offers.
But, again, I’m not a retailer and I’m not looking at it, even when I try, through your eyes.
Here’s a stupid question. When I was in the private sector, we had a situation pop up several times where things we needed were starting to get a little too expensive for a small(ish), privately owned business to easily deal with. The guy that owned our company got together with a few other small businesses in the same field and did a deal to bulk purchase together to lower our overall costs and to qualify for better discounts from distributors. Basically, we did the equivalent of pooling a half dozen or so comic shops’ buying power in order to compete with the larger discount book chains. I’ve only ever heard of that happening with comic shops once or twice and with, at best, three shops. Why don’t more of you guys do the same? Yeah, technically you’d be doing this deal with your “competition” in the area, but most areas seem to their LCS spaced out well enough that you would likely not damage any one shop’s customer base.
Won’t work with the distributors you have to deal with? Can’t work a deal with the other guys? Just never thought of it? Just wondering.
“Here’s a stupid question. When I was in the private sector, we had a situation pop up several times where things we needed were starting to get a little too expensive for a small(ish), privately owned business to easily deal with. The guy that owned our company got together with a few other small businesses in the same field and did a deal to bulk purchase together to lower our overall costs and to qualify for better discounts from distributors. Basically, we did the equivalent of pooling a half dozen or so comic shops’ buying power in order to compete with the larger discount book chains. I’ve only ever heard of that happening with comic shops once or twice and with, at best, three shops. Why don’t more of you guys do the same? Yeah, technically you’d be doing this deal with your “competition” in the area, but most areas seem to their LCS spaced out well enough that you would likely not damage any one shop’s customer base.”
There’s no need. The discount spread at the level of most of the larger shops like myself are at is pretty close. Amazon might be getting a point or two on me, but thats about it.
With Amazon, it’s about two things. One, they don’t do the monthly comics, and take any risk or loss on those, and they also operate largely on preorders of the books and such, so they minimize most of their risk. In addition, they don’t do creator signings, midnight Dark Tower Events, and Free Comic Book Day. They don’t maintain a nice, accessible, well lit store, with resonable business hours (which the majority of comic shops do, believe it or not). I can’t imagine they donate on a regular basis to the CBLDF like many of us (could be wrong there).
They regularly sell products for cost (or close to it) and they do so for the same reason Wal-Mart does.