Am I the only one who thinks the firestorm over Don Imus referring to a group of young black female basketball players as “nappy headed ho’s” is just way over the top?
I mean, the guy’s not a church deacon, or a senator, or even a sports broadcaster. He’s a shock jock. It’s his job to push humor to the edge and beyond the edge. So he made a joke that was in poor taste. He admitted it. He apologized for it. He was suspended for it, for crying out loud. And there are STILL people who want to drive him off the air? While the Reverend Al Sharpton is railing against him, has he never bothered to crack the Bible he ostensibly preaches and stumbled over the passage about erring being human and forgiving divine?
It’s IMUS, for crying out loud. If Imus referred to a group of young Jewish basketball players as Matzoh-slinging Jewboys, I’d just shrug and say, “Whatever, man. It’s Imus.” The guy’s filling however many hours his show is every day, and it’s live. If he goes over the line and then admits he did and apologizes, I’m sorry, but that should be the end of it. Anyone who’s flogging it beyond that point has their own agenda and is just using this to further it. If Al Sharpton is that upset about Black women being spoken of in such a disrespectful manner, then why not spend his time going after the radio stations playing rap songs that call Black women “ho’s” (when they’re not talking about killing cops.) Or are slurs and racism only acceptable when they stem from Sharpton’s own constituency?
PAD
• 
I have had a few reactions to the “jokes” from Imus. I’m a 53 year old black woman. I adopted and am raising a 15 year old black girl who is consistently on the honor roll and plays basketball for her high school. She was chosen to be apart of Sponsor a Scholar in her school and she is a nice young lady with a quick smile.
I say this because most aren’t in my position. I get to see all the hours of practice with her team, then all the hours of homework. I get to see her lose weight when things become too hectic but she never stops and never whines she has a dream.
Their are girls who don’t have my daughters inspiration, her nice personality her loving ways. I hate to see so many who imitate the Beyonce’s, Ciera and many others who writhe against the wall or lay and gyrate on the floors and wear as little as possible to sell their music while the guys will say anything and show their bling bling to impress the youth of today.
Maybe the ladies should take a look at who got the most awards. The one who just sings and dances and that is the Mary J. Blige. It took me a while to really appreciate her. Another is Alicia Keys and where I used to love Janet Jackson well I’m sick of seeing her little breast pushing up out of her clothes.
Yes, sadly Imus had to go but I hope and pray that many others black and white are right behind him.
P. Dixon
At this point, we’re just going to have to part ways on the issue and agree to disagree. I can’t make my viewpoint any clearer and I’m not likely to change on this one. I honestly believe that the best course of action in this would be for people to do away with these words on general public discourse and be done with them. I’m never going to subscribe to the idea that any vulgar, hurtful or despicable word should also be considered as fine and dandy when it’s “our word be used by us.”
I’m also going to hold the position that Imus should have been heavily fined and punished. But so long as the people who wanted him gone aren’t fighting just as hard to make people who’s bread and better is to be even more degrading towards blacks and women unemployed as well, Imus should still have a job.
When stuff like this,
http://www.metrolyrics.com/lyrics/2147415982/50_Cent/Get_In_My_Car
stops making guys like that millions of dollars, guys like that aren’t embraced by many in the black community and if they themselves are made unemployed…
Then I’ll feel that there’s no, or at least less, hypocrisy in what’s happened in the past week.
8@ Ahhhhhhhrrrgggggg!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Sorry, the header got lost on the above post.
That should read:
Micha,
At this point, we’re just going to have to…
Hey, I had a strange shift tonight. I’m a wee bit fried.
And that shoule be…
“our word being used by us.”
That’s it, I’m going to bed.
Posted by: Den
There was a columnist from NYC who did a whole series of articles uncovering this guy’s antics. I did find it interesting that neither Jesse Jackson nor Al Sharpton seemed to take an interest in those cases.
Of course not. The black population in Texas isn’t a large enough minority to make it worth posturing for.
BTW, now that the charges against the Duke students have been dropped and it likes like Nifong will be, at minimum, disbarred, anyone putting up any odds that Al Sharpton will apologize to the Lacrosse players about the comments he made about them?
Humor! Arh! Arh!
Posted by: Jerry Chandler
I’m also going to hold the position that Imus should have been heavily fined and punished. But so long as the people who wanted him gone aren’t fighting just as hard to make people who’s bread and better is to be even more degrading towards blacks and women unemployed as well, Imus should still have a job.
Fined? by who? For what specific offense?
Posted by: Bill Myers at April 12, 2007 10:05 PM
“Posted by: Micha at April 12, 2007 07:41 PM
One of the black posters on this thread felt that his repeated jokes at the expence of professional black women indicates an attitude that these women somehow do not deserve their success. His impression could be wrong, but his feelings are valid.
“Micha, you are in essence arguing that hurt feelings should count for more than the reality of a given situation. I realize that you are trying to distinguish between feelings that are valid versus those that are not, but who is to say which is which? Feelings aren’t governed by logic or reason.”
Here is the relevant post:
Posted by: Marcus at April 11, 2007 01:49 AM:
“I need to respond to some the comments being made here. As a Black man, I took some offense to Imus’ comments about the Basketball team, but it wasn’t the end of the world. However, when I found out about Imus referring to Gwen Ifil, a Black woman and a White House correspondent at the time, as a “cleaning lady,” and accomplished writer William Rhoden of the New York Times as a “qouta hire,” I began to feel like the firestorm was warranted. These comments are hurtful because it reinoforces the feeling that no matter how much you accomplish, how much success you obtain, in the eyes of far too many, you’re still (please pardon the expression, I hate it myself) “just a ņìggër.” I think that given his history with statements of this sort, it is beyond time for people to show that they are not alright with he and his cohorts saying these things. I am not in the camp that thinks he should be fired, but I think that the two week suspension and accompanying critism is just right.”
I owe him and apology for misrepresenting his ideas, and on not being clear myself.
First off, Marcus is making a good case to suggest that Imus is in fact racist as a matter of fact. I don’t have the tools to know if his assessment is correct or Bob Alfred’s concerning Imus. So, if I was trying to determine this question I would take both their testimonies in consideration.
It is my fault if it somehow came out as if Marcus’s emotions are an irrational tatement divorced from the issue of fact.
Secondly, Marcus’s post also provides for me — as a white person, and in this case a complete outsider — an invaluable insight into the concerns, and also the feelings of blacks concerning the word ‘ņìggër’ and the way it is used by whites and blacks.
Since the question we are dealing here is in the realm of politics, sociology and mass psychology (as opposed to physics or mathematics or logic), we are dealing here with a question of human interaction, in which feelings, attitudes, shifting meanings of words and contexts are the constants we have to take into consideration. It would probably be more irrational not too.
What I’m trying to do here is assess rationaly the complex interaction of human attitudes, meanings and emotions involved in this case, and find a way of balancing them and in the most rational way possible. Without taking feelings into consideration I cannot do that.
I alo think it is a mistake to believe that the issue here is logic vs. feelings. The issue here is the feelings of whites vs. the feelings of blacks. It is often a mistake of each side in an argument to believe that they represent reason while the other side is emotional. Usually both sides bring an emotional point of view to the table, and those points of view are valid both on the emotional level and on the factual, or rather, each point of view tells you something about the facts of the case and also about the undeniable fact of the emotions involved.
Thirdly, one of the issues on this thread was the feeling of whites that spokesmen like Al Sharpton are using the race card cynically against whites, while they are not realy being sincere about their attitudes toward the word ‘ņìggër.’ So here the question of valid vs. invalid emotions is doubly relevant. Are black spokesmen insincere about their feelings concerning the word ‘ņìggër’? And what do the feelings of whites in this regard tell us about white attitudes? If I were a political aide working for Al Sharpton, I would tell him that he needs to address these feelings among whites if he’s interested to affect their attitudes instead of just scoring points among blacks by annoying whity.
Bill, if I want to be your friend, I must do what your other friends do, and be aware of your emotions, no matter how idiosyncratic or irrational they may be. It would be irrational of me to ignore your emotions if the question before me is my interaction with you. Similarly, in the question of the interaction between blacks and whites (or Arabs and Jews in my part of the world), we should be aware of the feelings of blacks and whites. Which is not to say we should become emotional. On the contrary, we mut treat them rationaly and in a balanced way. This is why, for example, while understanding black feelings about the word ‘ņìggër’ I would never agree to an attempt to make the use of the word illegal. In my attempt at rational assessment: the concern of freedom of speech (whih is not wholly rational either) while not invalidating black feelings, overrides them. Conversly, while I understand Bobb and Jerry’s feelings concerning the use of the word ‘ņìggër’ by blacks, I think the emotional need of blacks to deal with that word in their own way outweighs Bob and Jerry’s emotions on this subject.
But then, this is just my opinions and feelings, both rational and irrational, and we can certainly agree to disagree in a spirit of mutual respect. Since this is what human interaction is all about.
The fact that Al Sharpton or rappers behave badly does not justify Imus behaving badly in and of itself. Unless the idea we’re suggesting is that we have no choice but to accept a certain level of bad behavior from everybody. What we don’t want is a situation in which every time Al Sharpton says something, whites wil cry for his head, and blacks will say: “what about Imus.” And every time blacks will want Imus’s head, whites wil say: “what about Sharpton.” The options are either to accept that guys like that exist on the airwaves, or that the white and black communities respectably will try to improve things in their own communities instead of passing the ball to the other. Or something in between the two options.
——
Ser, I really liked yor last two posts on this issue.
Posted by: Micha at April 13, 2007 06:09 AM
Bill, if I want to be your friend, I must do what your other friends do, and be aware of your emotions, no matter how idiosyncratic or irrational they may be.
Uh… no. It’s really the other way around. I can continue to have friends as long as I’m willing to cast aside the past and give my friends the trust they have earned. What happened to me when I was younger is over and done and it would be irrational in the extreme to let the emotional after-images prevent me from enjoying the friendships I have today.
Posted by: Micha at April 13, 2007 06:09 AM
By the way, I don’t feel as though I know you well enough to call you a friend, Micha, but I’m sure you’re a stellar friend to have. 🙂
I realize that you’re merely trying to recognize that there is are many “us vs. them” schisms in the world, but nevertheless the acceptance of the concept of the “outsider” troubles me. I remember about 15 years ago someone with whom I worked took to wearing a t-shirt that said, “You wouldn’t understand, it’s a black thing.” And I remember thinking, “Gee, that’ll help promote understanding.”
I really do want to understand, to build bridges, to help make the world a better place. But I can’t do that if others don’t want to reciprocate. And I’m beginning to feel as though the desire to reciprocate is becoming an increasingly rare commodity amongst people of all races, creeds, and any other group along which we care to draw battle lines.
I hope my feeling is wrong. But I’m not seeing a lot to make me hopeful.
“The fact that Al Sharpton or rappers behave badly does not justify Imus behaving badly in and of itself. Unless the idea we’re suggesting is that we have no choice but to accept a certain level of bad behavior from everybody.”
I think the term for that is “tolerance.” It’s something that, along with forgiveness, is seen as a charming theory and a rare practice.
There’s a song in “Avenue Q” called “Everyone’s a Little Bit Racist.” It’s charming and accurate and always draws genuine, aware laughter because it acknowledges what everyone denies, cloaking truth in a “Sesame Street”-esque tune.
White and Black cultures have always had a sort of cultural exchange program. Blacks have given us blues and jazz and spiritual hymnals and various slang terms and, as Newsday columnist Katti Gray (who is Black) pointed out, rap songs such as “Bìŧçh Betta Have my Money” by AMG, “Smack my Bìŧçh Up” by the Ultramagnetic MCs, “Money, Slabs and Hos” by Throw Minded Click, “Those Hos Like it Raw” by DJ Slugo, and “Money, Hos & Clothes” by DJ Shortstop…none of whom, to my knowledge, have offered apologies for their characterization of Black women that has pervaded both Black and White Culture.
And what have Whites given Blacks, you may ask? Well, judging by the firing of Don Imus, spearheaded by Al “Had to pay $65,000 to the White Cop he slandered and never did apologize” Sharpton (not to be confused with Jesse “Hymietown” Jackson) I’d say some of them have mastered the lynch mob mentality.
Can’t say I see that as an equitable swap.
PAD
Posted by: Bill Myers at April 13, 2007 06:42 AM:
“Uh… no. It’s really the other way around. I can continue to have friends as long as I’m willing to cast aside the past and give my friends the trust they have earned.”
Hopefully it is reciprocal.
“By the way, I don’t feel as though I know you well enough to call you a friend, Micha, but I’m sure you’re a stellar friend to have. :)”
Thanks. I’m afraid I have my own issues (of PAD’s comics). Apparently I use humor as a shield.
“I realize that you’re merely trying to recognize that there is are many “us vs. them” schisms in the world, but nevertheless the acceptance of the concept of the “outsider” troubles me. I remember about 15 years ago someone with whom I worked took to wearing a t-shirt that said, “You wouldn’t understand, it’s a black thing.” And I remember thinking, “Gee, that’ll help promote understanding.””
I too have problem with the need by blacks sometimes to build a wall and seperate themselves from whites. This is very apparent in music. Whenever whites get into a style of music that emerged among blacks, this style is somehoe devalued in the eyes of many blacks. They seem to see jazz, blues, rock, soul, funk and hip-hop as theirs, ignoring the fact that these styles also involve things taken from white culture and contributions by white. When whites add their own point of view to these styles of music, out of love, some black see it as stealing, instead of the opportunity for a dialogue. That is regretable.
That said, we should also understand the need of blacks to establish and assert their own unique identity. I believe that feeling confident about who ‘we’ are, makes it easier to be open to others. The 60’s civil right movement seems to have neglected the need among blacks to figure out their own identity as well as finding their place in the greater American one. As a result the vacuum was filled by less admirable forces. The State of Israel is certainly an embodiment of this internal conflict as far as Jews are concerned, between the need to differentiate our own unique identity and fitting in with and opening to the rest of the world. We also find it difficult to find the right balance quite often. Presumably my mother moved from New York to Jerusalem because she needed something that Jewish life in the US could not provide.
Posted by: Bill Myers at April 13, 2007 06:42 AM:
“I really do want to understand, to build bridges, to help make the world a better place. But I can’t do that if others don’t want to reciprocate. And I’m beginning to feel as though the desire to reciprocate is becoming an increasingly rare commodity amongst people of all races, creeds, and any other group along which we care to draw battle lines.”
I share the same feeling. Like I said, I think it is a certain lack of confidence by people concerning their own identities, which causes them to build walls and attack other identities instead of building bridges. Which is why the processes should go together.
Posted by: Peter David at April 13, 2007 06:59 AM:
I think the term for that is “tolerance.” It’s something that, along with forgiveness, is seen as a charming theory and a rare practice.
I couldn’t agree with you more. But I’ll try anyway.
“There’s a song in “Avenue Q” called “Everyone’s a Little Bit Racist.” It’s charming and accurate and always draws genuine, aware laughter because it acknowledges what everyone denies, cloaking truth in a “Sesame Street”-esque tune.”
Very true. Which is why people should be more tolerant of each other instead of scoring points by accusing others of racism or other stuff.
Maybe I’ll see Avenue Q next time I visit the US.
“rap songs such as “Bìŧçh Betta Have my Money” by AMG, “Smack my Bìŧçh Up” by the Ultramagnetic MCs, “Money, Slabs and Hos” by Throw Minded Click, “Those Hos Like it Raw” by DJ Slugo, and “Money, Hos & Clothes” by DJ Shortstop…none of whom, to my knowledge, have offered apologies for their characterization of Black women that has pervaded both Black and White Culture.”
Some of the best 60’s music has misogynous themes. Which does not excuse the behavior of rappers. I suspect Hip-hop is a good example of a patriarchal culture. So was 60’s rock to a lesser extent. It’s a little troublling to listen to songs with lines like ‘little girl’and such.
“And what have Whites given Blacks?”
Since all these styles of music emerged in the US and not in Africa, it seems that music benefited from the often tragic interaction between blacks and whites in the US. But let’s not also forget the whites who crossed the tracks to listen to, admire, promote, produce, imitate and add their own take to black music. They also had a role in breaking racial barriers. I believe that rock music is the result of people crossing barriers.
“BTW, now that the charges against the Duke students have been dropped and it likes like Nifong will be, at minimum, disbarred, anyone putting up any odds that Al Sharpton will apologize to the Lacrosse players about the comments he made about them?”
Futurama did a joke that seems to fit here: (Paraphrasing as I don’t have the episode in front of me and updating to this situation)
The odds-makers have placed “Sharpton apologizes” as a 1000 to 0 longshot. This means a wager of $0 on “Sharpton apologizes” will win $1000 if he does. Despite this, surprisingly few takers.
The thoughts I’ve expressed on this issue have been scattered at best. I’d like to add one last post that may provide some insight into my P.O.V.:
1. Blacks still have it tougher than whites in the U.S. There’s no question in my mind about that.
2. On an emotional level, no white person can truly know what it is like to be black in the U.S.
3. I have no problem with the double-standard that says blacks can use the “N” word while whites cannot.
4. I do have a problem with any double-standard that attempts to excuse racist attitudes on the part of individuals simply because they belong to minority groups.
5. I believe the power that comes from claiming the Mantle of the Perpetual Victim comes at a terrible price: it propagates the idea that minorities are inferior to whites.
5. While there is much work yet to be done, we have made significant progress against racism in the last 40-plus years. In my experience, those who would deny that are disguising a personal agenda as a political one.
6. Whites and blacks in the U.S. must find away to put aside our mutual distrust and find a way to work together. I realize that it’s easy for me to say as a white person who has never known the sting of racial oppression, but that doesn’t make it any less true.
Oh, I forgot something: Imus blows. Big time.
The fact that Al Sharpton or rappers behave badly does not justify Imus behaving badly in and of itself. Unless the idea we’re suggesting is that we have no choice but to accept a certain level of bad behavior from everybody.
I don’t believe anyone here is that as a justification for Imus’ bad behavior. But at the same time, if we want to live in a soceity of equals, that means everyone should held to same standard of conduct. If it’s wrong for Imus to call young women “hos”, then it should be equally wrong for rappers to do the same. This isn’t to defend Imus, whom I’m never liked. In fact, I’m thrilled he’s off MSNBC because that means I can watch that channel in the mornings before I go to work.
And that goes the same for the dreaded N-word. If Sharpton and others want that word banished from our public discourse (as I think it should be), then he should be having sitdowns with Chris Rock and various rappers and telling them that should drop it from their acts.
I do remember one black comedian whose name escapes me at this point, announced that he was dropping that word from his act after the Michael Richards incident. At the time, I was hoping others would follow suit.
And I do think Sharpton’s past bad behavior is relevant, not as a justification for Imus’s bad behavior, but because he has a long history of injecting himself into issues in order to get his face on TV and expand his influence in the black community. I think it was clear from the start that in this case, he was after getting Imus’s head for his wall rather than simply getting Imus to apologize and change his behavior.
Al Sharpton is a black man who has made a career of displaying anger without getting Rodney-Kinged or Sean-Belled. And the songs you cite are examples of fortunes built on the marketing of indulgence and privilege. (Consider the Austin Powers movie with the twins named “Føøk Mi” and “Føøk Yu.” As the Austin Powers persona is founded on indulgence, the race-protest died quickly.)
If Imus’s public persona was one of indulgence and privilege, and didn’t involve chummy access to our federal representatives, I couldn’t disagree with your account of arbitrary application of principle.
So, what progress-to-be-made are you referring to? Feel free to say if that question is too invasive.
Micha, I’m not white. I’m Cherokee/Filipino. At best, in my area, I’m thought to be Hispanic. I’ll never be mistaken for a white man. And I’ve experienced no small amount of racism in my life.
The thing is, I didn’t respond by attacking those few people ignnorant enough of my actual status to try and insult me correctly. I don’t seek to have people fired from their jobs, or ostracized, or try to exert my power, limited as it is, to try and hurt someone back. If I suspect there’s a chance to sit down and chat with people, I’ll take it. And I’m very careful not to engage in racist discriminatory behaviour on my own.
I hope that explains some of where I’m coming from. (and by the way, thanks for explaining why some people write G-d…I didn’t realize where that came from). What Sharpton and Jackson have done could potentially set race relations back 100 years. Why? Because it not only shows that the black community has power, but as PAD suggests, it shows they aren’t afraid to be heavy handed in using it. CBS fired Imus after meeting with Sharpton and Jackson (according to the news bit I heard…I’m not really sure about that). If that’s true, what message does that send out? That whites better be careful what hood language they try to mimic, or the black mob is going to go after them where they work? How is this an improvement? My wife had some hip hop song playing in the background last night, and one verse came up where every line started with “ņìggá.” Tell me, how are my children, who seem to have so far only inherited my eyes, and thus look very, very white, going to distinguish when using that word is appropriate and when it’s not? Do I know? Sure I do, because I didn’t hear it spoken outside of Roots until I was 16, and it caused a fight in the locker room I was in. It brought a good friend to tears, and caused me to think “oh, yeah, he’s black…and that’s what black slaves were called.” So the first time I heard it used contemporarily was in a very negative and emotional context.
The first time my son hears it, it’s in a song by a popular hip hop artist. Will my son, someday, lose his job because he speaks a word the black community makes common jargon, because he lacks the context to understand the full impact of the word?
I fully understand that in today’s world, the black community wants to take words away from other cultures. I don’t understand how you cannot see that as anything but racially discriminatory. It’s exactly the same thing the white slavers did…take things away from their slaves. As PAD says, the white community has always, ALWAYS adopted elements of black culture. It’s absurd of the black community to think that’s going to stop just because they ask us to, and manage to get a few idiots fired. So long as black entertainers continue to use these words, other people are going to embrace them. I’m not saying that’s right, that’s just the way it is.
As to the whole Imus mess…I’d really like to see his audience retaliate against the sponsors and stations here. I don’t want corporations deciding what is available for consumption. I want consumers to decide that, and this is a perfect opportunity for consumers to show Staples, Pepsi, CBS, and others that Sharpton and Jackson aren’t the only ones to have some power.
But the threats against the Rutgers players has to stop. Talk about an ultimate expression of stupidity. Attacking the one group that really is only a victim in this whole mess.
I just read Les Moonves’s statement, about how CBS fired Imus because we have to raise awareness and all that. I don’t buy it for an instant. “Why?” you may ask. Because Imus’s show was known for being provocative, and if there hadn’t been such an outlash, his show would go on. If you wanna be seen as progressive, do it BEFORE everyone’s calling for your head. This way, it’ll be seen as something other than damage control.
If someone loses his job because he wouldn’t understand why Jackie Chan in Rush Hour getting thrown out the window in that one scene is funny, the concerns of his parents are the least of mine.
Corporations have been dictating media access since before the highly-rated Gilligan’s Island was cancelled by an executive whose wife didn’t like it. Since when haven’t corporations acted as a gateway to mass media?
Mr. Mulligan, my intention wasn’t to take your quote out of context or put any spin on your words, as I said I doubt you meant anything in a derogatory manner, that particular portion of your statement just read as a backhanded compliment in my opinion. The rest of your statement I was in agreeance with, as well as some of the the other ideas and opinions that you have expressed.
That’s col. I do know where you are coming from–some people are just amazed when a guy like Obama comes along, as though every Black male is supposed to be grabbing his crotch and having every third word be a vulgarity. But we have to get beyond the point where even a compliment is seen as a potential insult–it does minorities no good if other people feel the safest bet is to just not say anything to them at all. Anyway, we cool. Sorry if I assumed you were going on the attack.
(As an aside…I suppose if one were looking for a silver lining in this it’s that a minority kid–actually any kid but especially a minority kid–who displays the least bit of poise, class and etiquette looks way better than they may deserve these days. The teen culture has gotten so raw and vulger that anyone who breaks the mold looks like a diamond in a pile of šhìŧ. They can go far. I tell my students that, well, I leave out the šhìŧ part, and you can see how some get it. Any parent who wants their kid to succeed–teach them common manners. They aint so common any more and people will love them for it.)
– I don’t profess to know your experience with or knowledge of rap music but qualified with ‘some’ or ‘all’ or not, what you expressed in your post was ‘ho’s’ and talk of killing cops, as though that is the be all end all of rap and hip hop music.
There are some great rap and hip hop songs out there but if you look at the top 5 this week–as someone (I think it was michelle Malkin) did and actually read the lyrics…it’s a cesspool. Imus would have been tarred and feathered if he’s used some of those lines on the ladies.
I have had a few reactions to the “jokes” from Imus. I’m a 53 year old black woman. I adopted and am raising a 15 year old black girl who is consistently on the honor roll and plays basketball for her high school. She was chosen to be apart of Sponsor a Scholar in her school and she is a nice young lady with a quick smile.
Ms. Dixon, you are to be congratulated. BTW, is there anything like Upward Bound at you school? (check out http://www.ed.gov/programs/trioupbound/index.html) I’m the coordinator at my school. It’s a program to prepare kids for college and it’s great–they do free tutoring, pay for college applications and the SATs, and do free saturday and summer sessions where the kids earn college credit. It’s a vitual guarantee of getting into a good college. Your daughter sounds like she would be a great candidate (and a perfect example of what I was talking about above–would anyone bet against this child suceeding?)
That said, we should also understand the need of blacks to establish and assert their own unique identity
But as we become less and less racially stratified–interracial marriages are now 7% of the total and growing–such identities will become harder to maintain. (Actually I think the true percentage of interracial marriage is higher–I’ve seen where it’s considered interracial if a biracial person marries a White but not if they marry a Black. Huh? Howzat?)
Mike Weber: “Fined? by who? For what specific offense?”
By his bosses. Monetarily or by a few weeks on the street without pay would have been fine. Imus does have a history of making racist comments, promising to never do it again and then doing it again. You hit a point as an employer where you don’t take the word of someone anymore and you start hitting their livelihood.
Micha: (Yeah, I know I said agree to disagree, but I’m thick headed.) “In my attempt at rational assessment: the concern of freedom of speech (whih is not wholly rational either) while not invalidating black feelings, overrides them. Conversly, while I understand Bobb and Jerry’s feelings concerning the use of the word ‘ņìggër’ by blacks, I think the emotional need of blacks to deal with that word in their own way outweighs Bob and Jerry’s emotions on this subject.”
Thing is, there are a lot of blacks in America who feel the same as I do. I turned the TV to MSNBC when I sat down just now and they had a black guest who said just that. They followed that with a roundtable of black guests that are all said the same thing. The interesting thing is that the guests are in there 40’s and 50’s while the callers offering excuses for using certain words are all younger.
There are even weird moments on film with people who used the n-word every third word. Richard Pryor was filmed in concert talking about a (then) recent event in his life where he went to Africa for a while. He was talking about the fact that he had suddenly realized that he hadn’t used that word in days. He realized that the reason why was because he wasn’t looking at any. He was looking at proud people. He talked about how hard this realization hit him and how he realized that the word was a description of the most wretched of the wretched amongst blacks and most blacks weren’t that word. He vowed, to huge applause by the crowd, to never use it again.
Lasted about a year. But it was interesting that he had this revelation at a time when he was trying to clean up from his various abuses and that he forgot about it as he slipped back into some of his own personal demons’ grips.
Micha: “The fact that Al Sharpton or rappers behave badly does not justify Imus behaving badly in and of itself. Unless the idea we’re suggesting is that we have no choice but to accept a certain level of bad behavior from everybody. What we don’t want is a situation in which every time Al Sharpton says something, whites will cry for his head, and blacks will say: “what about Imus.” And every time blacks will want Imus’s head, whites will say: “what about Sharpton.””
Yeah, we don’t won’t a situation where nothing gets done at all, but it’s also somewhat annoying when Sharpton steps forward and gets treated as some righteous cultural warrior by the media rather then the bloated, hypocritical, often hate mongering windbag that he is. David Duke has tried to play the Sharpton role for whites on some issues and been, quite rightly, flipped the bird by the mainstream media even when he said something of borderline merit. Duke’s history disqualifies him from being a member of the meaningful discourse on race. You can’t cry about the race card if you like to use it so much yourself. Sharpton and some others should be treated the same.
Bill Myers: “3. I have no problem with the double-standard that says blacks can use the “N” word while whites cannot.”
With you on every one of your points but that one. I’m going to keep believing that one of the best things any group of people can do for itself is to not embrace, celebrate or glorify the concepts of their own group self identifying themselves as the lowest of the low.
And speaking of the lowest of the low….
They’re talking now about the fact that Imus fans are sending nasty hate mail to Rutgers and the girls on the team. Yeah, the people that didn’t start the firestorm and have acted with more dignity then Imus, Sharpton or other players in this really deserve the grief. The girls that were Imus’s target really need to be attacked by a group of mouth breathers with nothing better to do. Geez.
Bill Mulligan: “But as we become less and less racially stratified–interracial marriages are now 7% of the total and growing–such identities will become harder to maintain. (Actually I think the true percentage of interracial marriage is higher–I’ve seen where it’s considered interracial if a biracial person marries a White but not if they marry a Black.”
I’ll push that the number of couples is even higher. Lots of people these days aren’t getting married. I know quite a few unmarried couples who are interracial and have been together for longer then Jenn and I have been married. They don’t show up in census either.
*****************************************************************************************************
Ok, the broken clock (Sharpton) was just on the TV saying the right things in front of CBS about using this as a springboard to deal with the black community’s own use of these terms and rap’s glorification of these terms. Now, if he actually does anything about it…
“Ok, the broken clock (Sharpton) was just on the TV saying the right things in front of CBS about using this as a springboard to deal with the black community’s own use of these terms and rap’s glorification of these terms. Now, if he actually does anything about it…”
I hope this isn’t an example of words being powerless….
There are even weird moments on film with people who used the n-word every third word. Richard Pryor was filmed in concert talking about a (then) recent event in his life where he went to Africa for a while. He was talking about the fact that he had suddenly realized that he hadn’t used that word in days. He realized that the reason why was because he wasn’t looking at any. He was looking at proud people. He talked about how hard this realization hit him and how he realized that the word was a description of the most wretched of the wretched amongst blacks and most blacks weren’t that word. He vowed, to huge applause by the crowd, to never use it again.
Lasted about a year. But it was interesting that he had this revelation at a time when he was trying to clean up from his various abuses and that he forgot about it as he slipped back into some of his own personal demons’ grips.
*****************
SER: As far as I know, Richard Pryor never used the word “ņìggër” in his act again after LIVE AT THE SUNSET STRIP — if he did, it was as the “epithet” but not as a word synonomous for blacks.
************
And that goes the same for the dreaded N-word. If Sharpton and others want that word banished from our public discourse (as I think it should be), then he should be having sitdowns with Chris Rock and various rappers and telling them that should drop it from their acts.
****************
SER: I actually disagree with removing the word “ņìggër” from the public discourse. I actually thought it was a positive that the word lost its “weight” as a weapon and that as a result of hip-hop culture, if a white kid and a black kid could call each other “my ņìggá.” Talk about destroying the hate in a word.
If Michael Richards had said, “Hey, my ņìggáš, what’s up! Enjoying the show?” I would be the first to say that any tarring of him was unfair in that his intent was not racist (sure, it might not be advisable since he didn’t know the guys personally but it wouldn’t have been the same as what actually happened, in which he got pìššëd øff and called these guys “ņìggërš.”
***********
White and Black cultures have always had a sort of cultural exchange program. Blacks have given us blues and jazz and spiritual hymnals and various slang terms and, as Newsday columnist Katti Gray (who is Black) pointed out, rap songs such as “Bìŧçh Betta Have my Money” by AMG, “Smack my Bìŧçh Up” by the Ultramagnetic MCs, “Money, Slabs and Hos” by Throw Minded Click, “Those Hos Like it Raw” by DJ Slugo, and “Money, Hos & Clothes” by DJ Shortstop…none of whom, to my knowledge, have offered apologies for their characterization of Black women that has pervaded both Black and White Culture.
***********
Peter, I’m not the biggest authority on hip-hop (more a casual fan) but even I know that “ho” was never synonomous for “black woman.” As Snoop Dog said, it’s basically the urban version of “šlûŧ.” (And it’s one of my favorite lines from BUFFY — when Buffy refers to Dru as a “ho”).
So, let’s play this again: Don Imus does a comedy routine about Nicole Richie sleeping around and refers to her as “šlûŧ.” Provocative, rude but far more defensible than his — out of the blue — referring to women as “šlûŧš” for no reason other than, well, what was the reason? Was there sexuality of issue at all?
And therein lies the problem.
Just another 2 cents:
I find it interesting that so many people focus on the racial aspect of the comments while ignoring the sexist portion. Namely, Imus calling the accomplished women “hos,” which I find very offensive.
Is it just me or is mainstream America more accepting of sexism vs racism? Shouldn’t they be treated with equal contempt?
I’m really surprised that more women’s organizations haven’t jumped on the bandwagon.
Christine
“1. Blacks still have it tougher than whites in the U.S. There’s no question in my mind about that.
2. On an emotional level, no white person can truly know what it is like to be black in the U.S.”
Sure, because if a white person says anything about blacks or other races, they only get fired, or beaten-up, or arrested for a “hate crime”, but if blacks say anything about whites, they get a high five, a pat on the back, and/or a 6-figure+ record deal/concert tour.
And god forbid being white looking for a job against other candidates if the company hiring doesn’t have enough of the other minority candidates.
Yeah, Whites don’t know the sting of racism…
Good point, Christine. Any slur against a group is reprehensible. People should be judged by their individual actions, not by their outward characteristics.
There is much less of a disagreement between myself, Jerry and Bobb than it seems.
2) I think none of us is enthusiastic about the idea of Imus — even if he is a jerk — being crushed by some black political apparatus for being a jerk. If somebody said something offensive I believe he should be criticized severely. But afterwards I would hope the audiences would make their own decision. I wouldn’t want it to seem as if some power group forced the network to fire him. It is not good for blacks as well as for society in general. Words should be countered with words.
2) I certainly disapprove of racism or mysogyny coming out of black society. I disapprove of the word ho and bìŧçh. And I don’t buy that it’s referingonly to some kind of women. From a glance at the link to Fifty Cent’s song provided above it seems that Mr. Cent refers to any women who is potentially likely to be in his company as bìŧçh. I believe these male rappers are as insensitive toward the women around them as some whites are or were toward blacks. And blacks spoke up, and so should women.
3) I assume none of us is complaining that we’re not alloowed to use the word ‘ņìggër’. It’s not like we’re dying to use it but can’t. I personaly also feel that by using the word on themselves blacks are, in a way, keeping themselves down. The difference here is that I believe that ultimatly this is a private black issue that I don’t understand comletely, and which they have to deal with themselves. I recognize their right and their need to deal with that demon themselves, and I don’t think it has any relation to why whites shouldn’t use the term. I don’t see it as discriminatory that blacks ask whites not to use the word. Since I don’t want to, it is not much of an imposition. I understand why they are offended when whites use it, but less than blacks. I might object if blacks react too aggressively hen a white person uses it.
4) I am aware and I disapprove of certain cultural influences of the hip-hop culture. But we have here another slippery slope: the comics/TV/Rock & Roll/video games/MTV/Hip Hop is ruining the youth slippery slope. Bob, I assume that you will teach your son when it is and isn’t appropriate to use the word ‘ņìggër’ just as you would teach him other habits related to appropriateness, despite all the influences of public media (don’t smoke pot despite Kirsten Dunst, and if you do don’t say it to the media). And maybe when your kid is a teen both black and white kids will use the word in order to annoy their parents. Who knows?
——————
“That said, we should also understand the need of blacks to establish and assert their own unique identity
But as we become less and less racially stratified–interracial marriages are now 7% of the total and growing–such identities will become harder to maintain. (Actually I think the true percentage of interracial marriage is higher–I’ve seen where it’s considered interracial if a biracial person marries a White but not if they marry a Black. Huh? Howzat?)”
It seems to me as an outsider that both themes exist in American society in a kind of imperfect balance. On the one hand, the desire to assimilate and merge together into an American identity. On the other, the desire of deferent subgroups — black, Irish, Jews, Muslims, Indians, Mexican, Indians from India, Germans, southerners, etc. — to keep their own uniqueness. It seems to me that both themes exist in interracial/interfaith/inter-ethnic/ inter-national marriages, and that they somehow try to pass to their children the uniqueness of both identities while living in harmony. How exactly it works? I have no direct knowledge. I know that my American relations who are intermarried connect with their Jewish identity by celebrating Jewish holidays and Bar Mitzvas and by remaining in contact with their Israeli relations. My 94 year old grandmother keeps sending them Jewish artifacts. I know the Irish and the Scots make money off Americans of Irish and Scottish decent who come seeking their roots. So things seem to be working out somehow. I think it is wrong for each one of these themes to be overstressed, either pressuring to assimilate or being too isolated. Althogh some take these approaches too.
Posted by: Bladestar at April 13, 2007 12:18 PM
Sure, because if a white person says anything about blacks or other races, they only get fired, or beaten-up, or arrested for a “hate crime”,
Sure, if they’re high-profile targets like Imus, or someone stupid enough to shout racial slurs in the middle of a predominantly black neighborhood. Other forms of discrimination continue to afflict minorities because they sail under the radar. For example, the practice of “redlining,” or denying people in poor (and usually predominantly black) neighborhoods mortgages for which they qualify based on their financial abilities is illegal but people I know in the financial industry tell me it still goes on.
Posted by: Bladestar at April 13, 2007 12:18 PM
but if blacks say anything about whites, they get a high five, a pat on the back, and/or a 6-figure+ record deal/concert tour.
Uhm… no. Cute… but no. Not every pottie-talking rapper gets rich. And not every black person gets away with trash-talking other groups. When Jesse Jackson ran for president, his “Hymietown” remark came back to haunt him in a big way.
Posted by: Bladestar at April 13, 2007 12:18 PM
And god forbid being white looking for a job against other candidates if the company hiring doesn’t have enough of the other minority candidates.
Only once in my life — ONCE — did I have reason to believe I had been denied a job due to a combination of my race and my gender. And you know what? It wasn’t enough to “keep me down.” Why not? Because I worked my ášš off and found other opportunities to get ahead rather than making excuses.
Posted by: Bladestar at April 13, 2007 12:18 PM
Yeah, Whites don’t know the sting of racism…
Look, as a white, non-Jewish, heterosexual male, I have NOT known discrimination on a par with that faced by blacks, Jews, gays, women, and a whole host of other groups I could name. That’s just a fact. I’ve never had to face water cannons just so I could sit at the lunch counter at the local diner. I’ve never been framed for a crime by corrupt law enforcement officials who targeted me because of my skin color. I’ve never been harassed by cops (sorry, Jerry, I know it’s not ALL cops but it does happen) because of the color of my skin.
So, unlike you, I’m not gonna whine about the discrimination I have faced. If blacks in the 1960s could face water cannons for the mere privilege of being able to sit at the lunch counter in the local diner, I can find a way around missing out on one job opportunity because of my race and gender.
Is it just me or is mainstream America more accepting of sexism vs racism? Shouldn’t they be treated with equal contempt?
Absolutely it is, in both directions, whether it be the “dumb blond” or the “oafish male”, the husband who can’t fix toast for his kids when the mom is sick (forcing her to down Niquil like a Detroit rapper so she can save her kids from Dad’s inneffectualness) to the ditzey valley girl and on and on…
But I don’t know that Imus’ slur was really a sexist one–woul dhe have ever called a predominantly White team “ho’s”? We can’t know for sure but the suspicion is that both “nappy-headed” and “ho’s” were specifically targeted at the color of their skin, not their gender.
Posted by: Micha at April 13, 2007 12:45 PM
Words should be countered with words.
I said the exact same thing in a post earlier in this thread. So it seems you and I are also far more in agreement than we initially thought. 😉
If blacks in the 1960s could face water cannons for the mere privilege of being able to sit at the lunch counter in the local diner, I can find a way around missing out on one job opportunity because of my race and gender.
I have to gently disagree with you there. It doesn’t help those who were hurt 40 years ago for you to be hurt now. It’s like your mom telling you to eat your asparagus because there are kids starving in Asia. What, when I swallow does some kid in Sri Lanka suddenly go “Mmmmmm…oinion flakes!”?
If you were the best person for the job it should have been yours, race be dámņëd.
Micha, I agree…I never viewed it as a disagreement, more a conversation.
And you’re saying my plan to raise my kids on nothing more than my movie, comic, and game collection isn’t sound? Rats. What if I throw in the Legos?
I do agree with two points made above…that, one the one hand, taking a negative word and turning it into a positive is a sign of empowerment. Like taking a derogatory nickname and making it your own, removing the negative sting.
At the same time, I do see the continued use of certain words within the black community as a way of keeping themselves repressed. It’s a hard choice…work to retain their cultural identity, while trying to live among and along side the predominant culture. You see clashes in such things as an urbankid going to his first job interview. The two culture’s idea of what proper attire is might differ. yet if the kid goes in anything less than dress shoes, slacks, shirt and tie, he’s not going to get the job, regardless of his training or skills.
Posted by: Bill Mulligan at April 13, 2007 12:56 PM
I have to gently disagree with you there. It doesn’t help those who were hurt 40 years ago for you to be hurt now. It’s like your mom telling you to eat your asparagus because there are kids starving in Asia. What, when I swallow does some kid in Sri Lanka suddenly go “Mmmmmm…oinion flakes!”?
Actually, you and I are in perfect agreement on that issue. The question is the severity of the hurt. If I sprain my ankle, denying that I’m in pain won’t help someone who loses both his legs in some awful industrial accident somewhere. Nevertheless, I’m not going to equate my pain with his. It’s just not the same.
And lay off the onion flakes. You know dámņ well they give you gas.
We have become more and more sensitive to language – and not necessarily in a good way.
Consider:
In the 60s, Ðìçk Gregory wrote a book (an autobiography, i think) entitles, simply Nìggër. he dedicated it to his late mother with the phrase “…now, wherever you are, if you hear someone use that word, they’re advertising my book.”
In the opening of the film The President’s Analyst, Godfrey Cambridge has a monolog about growing up the youngest child in a (relatively) well-off black neighbourhood, who never heard the word till he went to a new school in like second grade. It’s too long to recap, but the but the payoff is when he encounters his older brother and “…he told me what a ņìggër was. And then he did something worse. He told me I was it.”
I’m not advocating stand-up comics spouting wop, mick, kike, polack or ņìggër jokes; but when we hide from words, we give those words power that they don’t actually have – because words, by themselves, don’t have any power.
It’s when you form them up in ranks and send them out to do battle that they become powerful and potentially dangerous. And the ones you hide from are the ones that can be used most powerfully.
There’s a reason for the term “F-bomb”.
We have become more and more sensitive to language – and not necessarily in a good way.
Consider:
In the 60s, Ðìçk Gregory wrote a book (an autobiography, i think) entitles, simply Nìggër. he dedicated it to his late mother with the phrase “…now, wherever you are, if you hear someone use that word, they’re advertising my book.”
In the opening of the film The President’s Analyst, Godfrey Cambridge has a monolog about growing up the youngest child in a (relatively) well-off black neighbourhood, who never heard the word till he went to a new school in like second grade. It’s too long to recap, but the but the payoff is when he encounters his older brother and “…he told me what a ņìggër was. And then he did something worse. He told me I was it.”
I’m not advocating stand-up comics spouting wop, mick, kike, polack or ņìggër jokes; but when we hide from words, we give those words power that they don’t actually have – because words, by themselves, don’t have any power.
It’s when you form them up in ranks and send them out to do battle that they become powerful and potentially dangerous. And the ones you hide from are the ones that can be used most powerfully.
There’s a reason for the term “F-bomb”.
I find it interesting that so many people focus on the racial aspect of the comments while ignoring the sexist portion. Namely, Imus calling the accomplished women “hos,” which I find very offensive.
A lot of that probably stems from the fact that the leading force in getting Imus canned was Al Sharpton. Had Gloria Allred jumped onto the media train over this story, it might have been more balanced.
Is it just me or is mainstream America more accepting of sexism vs racism?
I think in the realm of comedy, yes. Humor about sexual stereotypes (male or female) is more acceptable than racial ones.
One thing that annoys me are people who treat the Hillary vs. Obama presidential race as a litmus test as to whether the country is more ready for a woman president or a black president. That ignores all the myriad issues about whether or not someone might be willing to vote for this particular woman or this particular black man.
Bill Mulligan wrote: But I don’t know that Imus’ slur was really a sexist one–woul dhe have ever called a predominantly White team “ho’s”? We can’t know for sure but the suspicion is that both “nappy-headed” and “ho’s” were specifically targeted at the color of their skin, not their gender.
I can’t say specifically whether Imus would have directed “ho” to a white woman, but I have heard it used that way before.
Christine
“Only once in my life — ONCE — did I have reason to believe I had been denied a job due to a combination of my race and my gender. And you know what? It wasn’t enough to “keep me down.” Why not?”
Because you get knocked down, but you got back up again?
PAD
Misha: …”at the expence of professional black women indicates an attitude that these women somehow do not deserve their success.”
Sorry, you hit my sticky point.
While the majority of black women DO deserve their success (I am not disputing this), anyone who works in a government field knows this is not always the case. Working for a state department, the candidates for promotion came down to my husband and a black woman (a friend and former coworker). The job requirements included a working knowledge of a computer program: my husband knew the program well, the woman did not know how to boot the computer. Who was hired? The black woman.
Point 2: When, several years later, my husband went for a promotion for which he was uniquely qualified with 10 years’ specialized experience, he was told point blank (a fatal mistake) that he could not be hired because he was not on the affirmative action list. This resulted in a three year law suit on reverse discrimination, during which we learned that the State has specific quotas of various minorities that they must hire – qualified or not – to meet their goals. You do not have to be competent, you just have to fit the quota.
How can ANYONE (of ANY ‘subgroup’) have pride or be considered ‘successful’ when they are being hired or accepted merely to fill a number? We as a nation are supremely wonderful at talking one game while playing another. WHen will we drop the quotas, drop the racial category on forms (I refuse to answer them), and just treat everyone the same? If something is an insult for one group to say it, then it should be an insult for ALL groups to say it, or do it, but we can’t have it both ways all the time.
Make up your minds, people.
(Yes, we won our lawsuit. Our lawyer? A very competent black lady)
WHen will we drop the quotas, drop the racial category on forms (I refuse to answer them), and just treat everyone the same?
When we actually DO treat everyone the same and do as we say, instead of lie and perpetrate the same ol’ crap with a wink and a nudge.
That’s how affirmative action came to be in the first place—when local governments and labor unions lied and refused to hire blacks for years. If we were to drop affirmative action, I doubt very much we’d see any Golden Age of color blind hiring….
“Because you get knocked down, but you got back up again?
PAD”
Bill took a whiskey drink, he took a lager drink, he took a vodka drink, he took a cider drink, and sang the songs that made him think about the good times, the songs that made him think about the best times?
But I don’t know that Imus’ slur was really a sexist one–woul dhe have ever called a predominantly White team “ho’s”? We can’t know for sure but the suspicion is that both “nappy-headed” and “ho’s” were specifically targeted at the color of their skin, not their gender.
Can’t it be both racist and sexist? He might or might not have used the term for a predominately white team, but the odds that he’d have used it to describe a male team are virtually nil.
And then he was pìššìņg the night away. As usual.
Posted by: campchaos at April 13, 2007 05:59 PM:
Misha: …”at the expence of professional black women indicates an attitude that these women somehow do not deserve their success.”
I spell my name Micha, because that’s how my American mother spelled it when I was born. However, my name is basically the Hebrew original of the english name usually spelled Micah.
“While the majority of black women DO deserve their success (I am not disputing this).”
“Our lawyer? A very competent black lady.”
So I think we can all agree that these women should not be called ‘hos’ or ‘ņìggërš.’ I would submit that the women who unfairly got your husband’s job shouldn’t be called that either. But apparently the term underqualified does seem to apply.
“How can ANYONE (of ANY ‘subgroup’) have pride or be considered ‘successful’ when they are being hired or accepted merely to fill a number?”
I am not sure I have sufficient knowledge of the way things work in the US to discuss affirmative action. However, I don’t think it is relevant to the previous discussion about the use of the word ‘ņìggër’, which I think we’ve pretty much covered.
“WHen will we drop the quotas, drop the racial category on forms (I refuse to answer them), and just treat everyone the same?”
As I understand it, there are two problems that are the reason for affirmitive action:
1) People are not treated the same. A person’s race or gender can still make it more difficult for them to gain the opportunities other enjoy.
2)People are not the same. As a result of history and present conditions some people, often black, are born with much fewer opportunities, and therefore have fewer opportunities later on when they search jobs.
In short, the playing field is not as level as it’s supposed to be.
Perhaps affirmative action is not the right solution to these problems? Maybe there’s a better one? Or maybe it’s the right solution but the way its applied is wrong. I do not know. I do know that glass ceilings are real, and sometimes something has to be done to break them, since they do not break on their own.
“something is an insult for one group to say it, then it should be an insult for ALL groups to say it, or do it, but we can’t have it both ways all the time.”
I think we’ve covered that. Whatever your opinion on the use of the word ‘ņìggër’, I think we can all agree that words can have different levels of severity when spoken by different people in different circumstances.
Like I said before, I don’t think the problem here is with words. I assume nobody here is dying to say the word ‘ņìggër’ but can’t. And although we might regret that young blacks use it among themselves, I doubt that the vocabulary of black kids is high on your list of concerns. Apparently, there are certain real concerns regarding the relations between blacks and others — such as affirmative action — that need to be addressed. But that’s just my opinion as an outsider.
—————-
Posted by: Christine at April 13, 2007 12:05 PM:
“Just another 2 cents:
I find it interesting that so many people focus on the racial aspect of the comments while ignoring the sexist portion. Namely, Imus calling the accomplished women “hos,” which I find very offensive.
Is it just me or is mainstream America more accepting of sexism vs racism? Shouldn’t they be treated with equal contempt?”
Unfortunatly, for people to start paying attention to a group feeling offended by something, that group — in this case women, or specifically black women — needs to draw attention to itself, and present its own point of view. Sadly, the kind od spokespeople that are very good at doing that often get carried away, like soldiers that don’t know when to stop fighting.
In any case, it seems that at present women, even more than blacks, have a difficulty conveying their point of view and their concerns in an effective way.
Going to an audition this morning, saw a yellow(ugh) Audi with a framed license plate. What’s engraved on the frame? “Beware the B*%$# driving the Circles.” Don’tcha know, thanks to this thread, I couldn’t help wondering if anyone ELSE called this woman that if she’d be offended. I also wondered if she’d be offended if I told her I think yellow cars look like Big Bird on roller skates.
You all should know, I’m going to have that song in my head all weekend while I’m at work, and it’s going to be VERY lonely.
I’m going to cite “Crash” again, because it presents a good example how the display of anger, or even the issue of keeping their hands visible, is not the same issue for blacks as it is for whites. The simple virtue of Al Sharpton’s public persona is that he is a black man who displays anger without getting Rodney-Kinged or Sean-Belled.
David Duke is just one angry white guy lost in the crowd of fox news and talk radio. He loses out because it’s hard for whites to disregard the systematic flushing of black votes in Florida or Shoshana Johnson’s contribution to our country when the racist white guy makes it hard to deny there’s such a thing as racism.
Posted by: Luke K.Walsh at April 13, 2007 06:28 PM
Bill took a whiskey drink, he took a lager drink, he took a vodka drink, he took a cider drink…
The last time I did anything like that, I turned scotch plaid, threw up like crazy, and nearly lost molecular cohesion. It was then that I learned the inescapable truth: I just can’t drink like I used to.
Now he uses a straw with his pinky raised, rather than just gulping it down.
Having written the my original post (below) on 4/10/07, I realized that my scenario was going to turn out to be completely wrong when Imus kept apologizing, apologizing, apologizing…
The minute he started down “Apology Way”, he gave his advertisers the perfect out to run swiftly away.
Two disparate radio personalities– Howard Stern and Rush Limbaugh–both said that Imus was apologizing like a guy desperately attempting to save his FIRST radio job.
I still have no doubt that Imus will be back (if he doesn’t just decide to sit back and enjoy the rest of his life)… He just won’t be back in two weeks.
And when and if he does decide to return (and it will be HIS decision)– the latter half of my original prediction will play out the same way I envisioned it.
Did anyone else read the AP story that said Imus– in addition to his Western properties– had a 30 million dollar beach house and a Penthouse apartment overlooking Central Park that had a 1,400 SQUARE FOOT BALCONY?
Plus, he had recently resigned with CBS for another 5 years at $10 Million a year. When his lawayers and agents get finished negotiating Imus’ final settlement (estimated to be at least $30 million)– he will be able to go buy his own radio station, syndicate himself and then mock fire himself as the need arises.
“Posted by: insideman at April 10, 2007 04:36 PM
Chiming in a little late here… So sorry if this ground has already been covered.
As we all know by now, Viacom/MSNBC have all acted completely (and convincingly) horrified and have suspended Imus for two weeks.
Here’s what’s really happening:
Suspension starts: Imus’ “time off” will be paid. Company officials will privately tell Imus to enjoy his new found fame and his two week “vacation”.
Imus arrives back from exile. Ratings go up by one million or two million listeners easy– as folks tune in to hear what Imus is going to say next… Giving a “shock jock” who hasn’t been the least bit relevant since the early 80’s some unneccesary attention.
Ratings quickly erode as the majority of new listeners realize that Imus is a “one offense wonder”. Still, some ears stick around– making Imus’ bosses very happy.
A year later, another predominately African American women’s basketball team makes it to the finals of the NCAA. More free mainstream press for Imus (“Has Imus REALLY Changed?” “What is Imus Up To Now?”)
One of Imus’ lame sidekicks starts to mention the women’s basketball final– Imus interrupts him and says, “For the love of God, don’t go there!!”
Cue “rimshot” from the studio SFX guy.
Shortly thereafter, Reverend Al shows up… All is forgiven (and soon forgotten).”
I came in late to this discussion, but it seems to me that the people who want to keep the national dialogue about this issue going, should be sorry that Imus was fired. Now the issue will disappear from public discourse in a few days. Where as if Imus came back after a two week suspension, he would keep it going for months. No one, and I mean no one, can sell a cause like Imus. If you need a Veterans Hospital built, tell Imus, and he will rally thousands to donate time and money to do it.If Autism is being caused by something, and you want the world to know, tell Imus. If there is a cause that he cares about, he’ll talk about it on the air, with real, respectable guests, who’s opinions actually carry serious weight, not charlatons like Sharpton. Heck, I bet he would have had every member of the Rutgers Womens Team on his show, one at a time if neccessary.
Now, it will go on for a few days, a new News cycle will come, and nothing will change.
Correct you are, Peter. I’ll miss Imus in the morning.