It’s bad enough that the definition of “news” has come to mean stories about bad jokes from shock jocks and paternity tests. That stories which were once the purview of tabloids are now routinely given as much, if not more, play on major news outlets as stories that actually have some worth.
So what’s the latest “news” off the AOL feed?
Kirsten Dunst says she likes to smoke pot.
Aside from the minor name irony of Mary Jane liking Mary Jane, an LA actress says she likes to smoke pot? My God, how is this REMOTELY news? Tell me a staunch anti-drug advocate is found stoned, and that’s a story, but an LA actress? You’re kidding, right? What next? Jerry Seinfeld announces he likes jokes? Or, as another poster commented on the Imus thread, this just in: Water is wet.
PAD
• 
A hundred years from now? I’m not placing any bets.
I wonder. If a lot of the life extension technologies that we see a lot of in science fiction or in futurist articles pan out, we might find ourselves in a society where people might not even consider getting married until they’re 50 or more.
Consider also that, particularly among the noble classes, it was once common practice for a middle aged or older man to marry a teenaged girl.
But the whole thing with Hal and Arisia, even artificially aged, was still icky to me in my early 21st century sensibility.
I thought the Hal/Arisia thing adequately exemplified the disparity we might have with alien cultures about something very sensitive to ourselves. Didn’t that storyline evolve to something along the lines of Arisia already being of marrying age in her own culture?
Meanwhile, the Star Wars theories come at a time when a buddy of mine passed me this text file that’s a combination of “Star Wars” meets “Loose Change” that I thought I’d share:
Websurdity Link: This article was inspired by the fine users at the
James Randi Educational Foundation (JREF) Forum, to whom I am
indebted for the use of much of this material.
We’ve all heard the “official conspiracy theory” of the Death
Star attack. We all know about Luke Skywalker and his ragtag bunch of
rebels, how they mounted a foolhardy attack on the most powerful,
well-defended battle station ever built. And we’ve all seen the
video over, and over, and over, of the one-in-a-million shot that
resulted in a massive chain reaction that not just damaged, but
completely obliterated that massive technological wonder.
Like many Americans, I was fed this story when I was growing up. But
as I watched the video, I began to realize that all was not as it
seemed. And the more I questioned the official story, the deeper into
the rabbit hole I went.
Presented here are some of the results of my soul-searching regarding
this painful event. Like many citizens, I have many questions that I
would like answered: was the mighty Imperial government really too
incompetent to prevent a handful of untrained nerf-herders from
destroying one of their most prized assets? Or are they hiding
something from us? Who was really behind the attack? Why did they
want the Death Star destroyed? No matter what the answers, we have a
problem.
Below is a summary of my book, Uncomfortable Questions: An Analysis
of the Death Star Attack, which presents compelling evidence that we
all may be the victims of a fraud of immense proportions.
Uncomfortable Questions about the Death Star Attack

1) Why were a handful of rebel fighters able to penetrate the
defenses of a battle station that had the capability of destroying an
entire planet and the defenses to ward off several fleets of battle
ships?
2) Why did Grand Moff Tarkin refuse to deploy the station’s large
fleet of TIE Fighters until it was too late? Was he acting on orders
from somebody to not shoot down the rebel attack force? If so, who,
and why?
3) Why was the rebel pilot who supposedly destroyed the Death Star
reported to be on the Death Star days, maybe hours, prior to its
destruction? Why was he allowed to escape, and why were several
individuals dressed in Stormtrooper uniforms seen helping him?
4) Why has there not been an investigation into allegations that
Darth Vader, the second-ranking member of the Imperial Government, is
in fact the father of the pilot who allegedly destroyed the Death Star?
5) Why did Lord Vader decide to break all protocols and personally
pilot a lightly armored TIE Fighter? Conveniently, this placed Lord
Vader outside of the Death Star when it was destroyed, where he was
also conveniently able to escape from a large-sized rebel fleet that
had just routed the Imperial forces. Why would Lord Vader, one of the
highest ranking members of the Imperial Government, suddenly decide
to fly away from the Death Star in the middle of a battle? Did he
know something that the rest of the Imperial Navy didn’t?
Just to throw in my two cents: I always assumed that Ben Kenobi was his real name and Obi-Wan was his Jedi name (much like the Sith change their names). It would explain why so many of the Jedi have those similar, hyphenated names (Obi-Wan, Qui-Gon, Ki-Adi… um, okay, that’s only three, which isn’t exactly “many”). Actually, never mind… Anakin would have changed his name, if that were true. Scratch that theory. Obi-Wan’s just an idiot.
Coming back to the Arisia thing for a minute…My recollection is that Arisia approached Hal, told him her feelings and was politely rebuffed because, as has been pointed out, Hal was much older than Arisia (some ambiguous thirty-something age to her thirteen or fourteen).
Arisia, posessing as she did the Most Powerful Weapon in the Universe, then used her power ring to age herself into a physically-mature woman. Hal was rightly shocked to discover this, and initially pointed out that she was still chronologically and mentally 13/14, but I think he did eventually give in–it’s been a while since I read the issues.
Re: How’d Obi-wan do it. Remember, even with Obi-wan and Qui-Gon on Tatooine, there was also Yoda chillin’ on Dagobah.
It also seems that the Emperor had an interest in keeping Luke alive. Given he told Anakin/Darth Vader that Amidala and the baby (he didn’t know about there being twins), and that news driving our boy right over the edge, Darth probably stopped looking for his son.
Since Luke wasn’t using the Force, Obi-wan, Qui-Gon, and (possibly) Yoda would have had an easier time hiding him. Added to Vader’s maybe not looking for his son, hiding him in the ášš end of nowhere isn’t such a bad idea.
Of Mulligans and Milligans.
Over at http://www.landofthelost.com/
a forum dedicated to the 1974-1976 Saturday morning TV series Land of the Lost, * someone has occasionally tried to pass himself off as one of the show’s stars, Spencer Milligan. Only he uses the name “Mulligan” in his posts.
Or maybe he deliberately uses the wrong name to indicate that he’s not really trying to pass himself off as the genuine article. I’m not sure. But no one except newbies has taken him at face value.
At any rate, no doubt the universe caused Bill Mulligan to become known as Bill Milligan in this thread in order to balance out the incorrectly named “Spencer Mulligan” over there.
And by maintaining such balance, we needn’t worry about the universe exploding.
So, it wasn’t a typo after all. The universe made me do it.
Regarding Kenobi, although Star Wars the movie was released before The Incredible Hulk and within the context of the story, the events take place a “long time ago”, the Jedi Knight in hiding somehow learned of Dr. David Bruce Banner and took a page from his book of aliases. Only Kenobi kept his last name and didn’t constantly change his first.
By the way, Memoirs of a Monster is the subtitle. The main title is The Darthside.
Rick
*Of course I speak of the good original Land of the Lost series, in large part created by David Gerrold (who also served as first season story editor), which, despite budget limitations, felt like it was set in another universe; not the early 1990s remake, filmed outdoors in a park somewhere, which looked like it took place in a park somewhere.
Posted by: Manny at April 13, 2007 03:19 PM:
“Re: How’d Obi-wan do it. Remember, even with Obi-wan and Qui-Gon on Tatooine, there was also Yoda chillin’ on Dagobah.
It also seems that the Emperor had an interest in keeping Luke alive. Given he told Anakin/Darth Vader that Amidala and the baby (he didn’t know about there being twins), and that news driving our boy right over the edge, Darth probably stopped looking for his son.
Since Luke wasn’t using the Force, Obi-wan, Qui-Gon, and (possibly) Yoda would have had an easier time hiding him. Added to Vader’s maybe not looking for his son, hiding him in the ášš end of nowhere isn’t such a bad idea.”
Manny, you present 3 good alternatives.
1) That Yoda or Obi-Wan or both used the force to hide Luke and themselves. I like that because it creates a nice parallel with Yoda’s own inabillity to sense the Sith or the future threats they posed while he was the man in power.
Wasn’t it mentioned in one of Timothy Zahn’s books that Dagobah was somehow shielding Yoda? I prefer your approach, because it means that Yoda was actively hiding himself. Somebody could right a good book about what Yoda and/or Obi-Wan were doing while they were waiting for Luke to hatch.
2) The idea that Palpatine knew about Luke offers very interesting possibilities. But I’m not sure it’s very likely that Palpatine would have not simply taken Luke as soon as possible and secretly started training him. This could be a good ‘what if’ kind of story. Unless we come up with a reason why it was better for Palpatine that Luke will grow up the way he did.
3) The third option is the simplest. That Vader wasn’t looking for Luke because as far as he knew he was never born. That still leaves the quesion, why didn’t he look for Obi-Wan? Conspiracy again? After all, considering Obi-Wan mutilated him and left him to die a long agonizing death (in one of the weaker point of Revenge of the Sith), it seems Vader took it rather well. Wouldn’t he want revenge? Or was he afraid? I would prefer anexplanation that some part of him chose to let Obi-Wan go. But the relationship between Anakin and Obi-Wan was never established very well in the movies.
Question: is it silly to be discussing this?
Answer: would a discussion about Kirsten Dunst pot smoking habits be more satisfying?
I’d like to hear more about this whole Hal Jordan story, but I don’t know anything about it.
*Of course I speak of the good original Land of the Lost series, in large part created by David Gerrold (who also served as first season story editor), which, despite budget limitations, felt like it was set in another universe; not the early 1990s remake, filmed outdoors in a park somewhere, which looked like it took place in a park somewhere.
There was a second Land Of The Lost show??? I did not know that, sir.
I’m thinking about making a Sleestack costume someday for Halloween. Not many will get the reference but for those people who do it will kill.
there was also Andy Milligin, who made movies in Staten island, where I was born. His movies are so terrible I’ve seen most of them only once.
“There was a second Land Of The Lost show??? I did not know that, sir.”
I was stuck watching a friend’s kids several times when that show was on. Trust me, you missed nothing.
“I’m thinking about making a Sleestack costume…”
Green or brown(ish)?
Or Gold. Remember the Gold Sleestack?
I think we may be talking about the same one. It’s been a loooonnnnngggggg time since I saw the series.
Are you talking about the Sleestack from another time who could talk and was the Marshall’s friend?
Technically the gold Sleestacks are actually Altrusians.
(Excuse me, I seem to have misplaced my life.)
I actually remember the episode where Enik the Altrusian realized that the Sleestacks were his decendants and not his ancestors. I felt bad for him. Does the show hold up or am I better off with fond memories?
I haven’t a clue Bill.
I haven’t seen it since it aired originally.
Yeah, I remember that episode too.
You remember the portals/pyraminds?
Kathleen David asked, “Remember the Gold Sleestack?”
The “Gold Sleestak” was Enik, an Altrusian (the ancestors of the Sleestak), who found himself propelled forward in time to a period in his own history when his highly advanced civilization had degenerated into barbarism. He wants very much to get back to his own time to prevent this catastrophe. Enik was played by the late Walker Edmiston, and first appeared in the first season episode, “The Search”, written by Walter Koenig.
The entire original Land of the Lost series is now out on DVD. Has been for about two or three years, now.
Bill Mulligan: Yes, there was a second Land of the Lost series. When I first heard about it I was excited because I looked forward to seeing a really cool waterfall scene using up-to-date special effects.
Only the family in the new series (the Porters) didn’t plunge over a waterfall. Instead, in the opening credits, their Jeep-like vehicle (don’t know if it was an actual Jeep or not) falls through an opening in the ground during an earthquake, does a complete somsersault, and is still driveable as they drive it out of the cave.
I watched a few episodes, but never got into it. I didn’t like their depiction of the Sleestak (one sounded like Mortimer Snerd, an apparently common affliction of “kids show” of that early 90s era, given how often I’d come across those Snerdian vocal qualities.
Also, in the original, the Marshalls are literally chased into their cave, High Bluff, by Grumpy; and all they have are the few supplies they brought along on their rafting expedition? The Porters? They somehow were able to build a treehouse, and not only have a Jeep (or whatever) but also a tape player.
The original Land of the Lost was much better in terms of creating a believeable alien environment. Sure, it had limitations, but it also had writers like Larry Niven, Wina Sturgeon and D.C. Fontana involved, as well as the previously mentioned David Gerrold and Walter Koenig. I don’t know who wrote for the new series, but I suspect they were TV writers, not writers with a background in science fiction.
Rick
Bill, in my opinion, the show holds up, though again, it’s not perfect. If you’re interested, stop over at the Land of the Lost website, go to the forums page, click on the thread “Land of the Lost boxed sets on DVD” and read the episode review threads (you’ll have to go back a few pages as that particular thread has been dormant for a while). A bunch of us went through each episode and discussed their merits and demerits.
Rick
Kathleen David asked “remember the portals/pyramids?”
Those were the Pylons.
Rick
P.S. One of the great things about the original Land of the Lost, something I doubt we’d see today (especially on a “kids’ show”, is that the Marshalls learned various things about this strange new land bit by bit, over the course of the first season. If I recall correctly, Gerrold structured it that way. Take, for example, the Pylons. I believe we see one in the first episode, but don’t get inside (or even have reason to believe you can get inside until the eighth episode.
Funny, I thought his name was Enid. I always wondered about that. I saw some footage from the original in a friend’s collection(bootlegs from a con) and excusing the limitations of the source, I thought it held up pretty well.
And I still miss Chaka.
“Technically the gold Sleestacks are actually Altrusians.”
Hey, I was SIX when I last saw it in its first run.
I’m surprised ay how much I remember from it though.
The Medusa episode, Grumpy, the fever epidemic, learning that the Land’s weather and environment was controlled by the crystals in the Pylons and Skylons (I can’t believe I can remember those names) and that weird pit in the caves of the Sleestacks.
Huh, I haven’t thought about that series in years. Thanks for the pointer, Rick. I’ll have to seriously think about convincing my wife that those DVD sets are necessary child rearing tools that could be vital in the overall education of our soon to be kid.
Sean,
Koening originally wanted to name Enik “Eneg”, after Gene Roddenberry, but Gerrold nixed that, presumably because it was such an obvious Tuckerism.
Jerry,
speaking of the Medusa episode (a third season episode), One of the few times I thought a cut made during a show’s return in re-runs was better than the original cut occurs in that episode. The Sci-Fi channel re-ran Land of the Lost in the early 90s and made cuts. In the case of “Medusa”, one cut removed the coda entirely.
Here’s how it went as originally aired: Jack defeats Medusa, who is now a stone statue, just like her victims. He walks out of her garden. Cut to commercial, and come back for the coda in which Holly observes that the trouble with vanity and other such vices is “you never know when you might get stuck that way.”
As re-edited by Sci-Fi in the mid 90s:
Jack walks out of the garden. Cut to closing credits.
Much better that way.
For the record, such “moral of the story” codas were more typical of the third season than the first two. At least ones so blatantly obvious as the example above.
If you can only get one season, get season 1. That’s not to say seasons 2 and 3 aren’t as good, but Gerrold structured season 1 to stand alone- especially since he didn’t know if they’d have a second season. He also designed it (with help from Larry Niven) so that the last episode of the season would dovetail with the first, so that if it had been just one season, and you caught it in reruns, you could smoothly go from the end back to the beginning again.
Rick
(At the risk of starting a war with video shop owners on the board…..)
Well, if you ever want to find out how well it holds up, Deepdiscount.com has the entire series for $59.82 + free shipping. It’ll be a hard sell on my end, but I should be able to con the wife… er… I mean convince the wife that $60 is a small price for the overall benefits that it will provide in the raising of our child.
I know I’m coming a little late the the party, but I just have to toss my two cents in concerning Leia, Vader, Jedi robes, etc…
It should be noted that some is conjecture on my part, some is cobbled together from EU sources, and I’ve got enough trivia rattling around in my head that the line admittedly gets blurred between the two at times. So, if I inadvertantly claim an idea from print as my own, I give a pre-emptive “mea culpa.”
It’s been mentioned in a couple of sources that traditional Jedi robes are essentially simple traveler’s robes of a type which can be seen in any spaceport in the galaxy. This serves the dual purpose of being humble, which befits an order dedicated to service and a certain degree of ascetism, and letting Jedi blend into the average crowd as a situation may demand.
As to Obi-Wan and Yoda deciding to have Luke’s family raise him, I’m willing to chalk that one up largely to a Force “hunch” on Yoda’s part. Also, it’s entirely possible that Obi-Wan changed his name to Ben and kept his last name was to keep it close enough to the truth that he would react naturally to it in conversation. Besides, in a galaxy of billions upon billions of beings, he’s probably not the only Kenobi.
I’m fairly certain that Palapatine knew at least about Luke, and possibly about Leia. I figure that he let Luke be instead of raising him himself because Vader’s turn was based entirely on his fear for his family, and cemented by thinking they were dead. Having his son around would be a potential threat to his loyalty to the Emperor. Of course Vader, diminished Force potential aside, was still too useful as a right-hand-man and enforcer to cast aside in favor of someone who wouldn’t really come into his power for another couple of decades, particularly since Vader himself was an integral part of Luke’s planned fall to the Dark Side. (It almost worked, too)
Now, as to Leia, I think she was Palpatines Plan-C, like she was for Yoda and Obi-Wan, just not in the same way. In a worst-case scenario, Palpatine having to kill Luke and being stuck with Vader for a while longer, or losing both Vader AND Luke, Leia, blissfully unaware of her true heritage, could be counted on to have a child at some point, carrying on the Skywalker bloodline.
-Rex Hondo-
Posted by: Micha at April 13, 2007 06:24 PM
“2) The idea that Palpatine knew about Luke offers very interesting possibilities. But I’m not sure it’s very likely that Palpatine would have not simply taken Luke as soon as possible and secretly started training him. This could be a good ‘what if’ kind of story. Unless we come up with a reason why it was better for Palpatine that Luke will grow up the way he did.”
Palpatine needed Luke to have normal life so that he could first pervert or corrupt the nature of Luke’s relationships, then tale them away and replace the people in those relationships with himself and the Dark Side.
He also probably didn’t trust Vader much father than he could toss him. Even if he didn’t know where Luke was exactly, he believed Luke would inevitably come to the Emperor himself and replace Vader as his hatchet man.
“3) The third option is the simplest. That Vader wasn’t looking for Luke because as far as he knew he was never born. That still leaves the quesion, why didn’t he look for Obi-Wan? Conspiracy again? After all, considering Obi-Wan mutilated him and left him to die a long agonizing death (in one of the weaker point of Revenge of the Sith), it seems Vader took it rather well. Wouldn’t he want revenge? Or was he afraid? I would prefer anexplanation that some part of him chose to let Obi-Wan go. But the relationship between Anakin and Obi-Wan was never established very well in the movies.”
It’s also possible that Vader figured he had taken everything fom Obi-wan–the Jedi Knights, his belief in Anakin as “the One”, the Republic–and took some sort of pleasure in letting him live with the loss.
Another possibilty is that Palpatine used the force to keep Vader from being distracted by a search for Kenobi, Luke, and/or Yoda. The effort involved interfered wth the Emperor’s ability to accurately locate Luke or predict Luke’s influence on future events.
“Question: is it silly to be discussing this?
Answer: would a discussion about Kirsten Dunst pot smoking habits be more satisfying?”
What’s wrong with silly?
Changing the subject once again, I bring actual important news.
(importance not valid in all areas)
I previously mentioned on another thread that I recently sold my short story “Ascension” to the science fiction and fantasy audiozine SCYWEB BEM. It’ll be published sometime in the next year.
Now, on a related note (and in answer to a question Bill Myers asked some time back), my radio play, “With Best Regards Ronnie Silver: The Damiani Diamond Matter”, which was performed and broadcast in Kalamazoo, Michigan in early 2006, is available for your listening pleasure for a limited time (about one year). To hear the play (a mystery, for the record), visit here:
http://www.allearstheatre.com/rewind.asp
Rick
Posted by Paul1963
Arisia, posessing as she did the Most Powerful Weapon in the Universe, then used her power ring to age herself into a physically-mature woman. Hal was rightly shocked to discover this, and initially pointed out that she was still chronologically and mentally 13/14, but I think he did eventually give in–it’s been a while since I read the issues.
Actually, as i recall it (giving my inner geek full rein), it was one of those “Gee-I-didn’t-know-it-could-do-that-just-because-I-subconsciously-wanted-it” power ring bits.
I recall Arisia feeling less than 100% for an issue or two and then suddenly “mysteriously collapsing” and waking up physically twenty-something…
Posted by: Rex Hondo at April 13, 2007 11:21 PM:
“EU sources”
The European Union?
“Also, it’s entirely possible that Obi-Wan changed his name to Ben and kept his last name was to keep it close enough to the truth that he would react naturally to it in conversation. Besides, in a galaxy of billions upon billions of beings, he’s probably not the only Kenobi.”
I think Obi-Wan was clever enough to use a better alias if he wanted.
Maybe Kenobi is the galactic equivalent of Smith.
Does the fact that Obi-Wan and Qui-gon have similar style names suggest that they are from the same planet?
“As to Obi-Wan and Yoda deciding to have Luke’s family raise him, I’m willing to chalk that one up largely to a Force “hunch” on Yoda’s part.”
Maybe they wanted somebody they knew and/or trusted to take care of the child. How many were there who were trustworthy enough? Maybe they felt he should grow up in a Tatooine environment?Here again we have a flaw in the prequels, that the character of Owen is just a nobody. Wouldn’t it have been more interesting if he were Anakin’s real brother. I would have had him as a half brother. That would have also made him a good contrast between his personality and Anakin. It also fits better with the impression in the beginning of A new Hope, that Owen knew Anakin well.
“I’m fairly certain that Palapatine knew at least about Luke, and possibly about Leia.”
I prefer the idea that Palpatine found out about Leia as a result of Luke being careless with his emotions during the final battle, or something to that effect.
Wouldn’t Palpatine want to bring up Luke the way he brought up Mara Jade? Wouldn’t he want him to grow up and train from early age under his thumb? He could easily have kept him hidden from Vader. But maybe it is better for him that they start good and then corrupt? Or maybe he wanted Luke to go through Jedi training? Or maybe he wanted Luke to lead him to the remaining Jedi? Many possibilities.
I felt that the Sith apprentices should have gone through a process of being better, as far as Palpatine was concerned: starting with the animalistic Darth Maul, then to the next one, then to Darth Vader, with Luke being the next progression. Here again the slopiness of the prequels in aparent in the character of Count Dukooo. I had a much better idea.
“Another possibilty is that Palpatine used the force to keep Vader from being distracted by a search for Kenobi.”
Wouldn’t Palpatine want Obi-Wan found? another good story for the time between the end of Revenge of the Sith and A New Hope.
I would characterize Vonnegut’s work as a descendent of Ambrose Bierce, and Bierce as a descendent of at Dante, where, like the Devil’s Dictionary and the Divine Comedy (and the Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy after them), he constructed fantasies that reveal the underlying agendas obscured by the pretenses presented to us. I’m not familiar enough with Cervantes to be sure he fits in there, but I wouldn’t be surprised if that was the case.
Vonnegut said he was trying to poison the minds of people with humanity before they became generals and leaders and such, and everything I know about him are views that horrify you. What nice thing could you possibly say about him that qualifies him as “One of the great ones?”
Let me rephrase:
…an application of a scientific observation you found an anathema.
Unfortunately(?), I began my Vonnegut reading with SIRENS OF TITAN and, well, ended my Vonnegut reading there. The way he just transitioned instantly to a s seemingly huge non sequitur, only to spend part of the rest of the book showing why it wasn’t really, simply smacked of dreadful writing, designed to needlessly confuse the reader to no good purpose. I have since come up with a theory as to why he did it, but it still doesn’t particularly appeal to me and killed me off his writings.
I like smoking pot as well. And I hate how ho’s are always trying to get me for my money. And Peter, you should know that Sienfeld doesn’t like ALL jokes.
I’m wondering what you have in mind as a better exchange for money than sex.
Marshall, Will and Holly… on a routine expedition… and the greeeeeaaaatest earthquake ever known…
God, that takes me back. I remember I even had the ViewMaster reels of that show.
I know you don’t think this way because I’m the only one I’ve heard charactize Vonnegut’s work this way, and you’ve characterized me as devoid of wisdom and, with the exception of perhaps a few comments, thought.
Your opinion of Kurt Vonnegut is perfectly valid as far as I’m concerned, though, admitedly, the level of concern I have for your opinion of Kurt Vonnegut is kind of small.
When I cited Vonnegut’s deference to a scientist who dismissed the notion of the spontaneous arrival of life as depicted on evolutionary timelines, it seemed to lower your evaluation of him. The scientist in question was referring to life on earth originating from elsewhere, but part of the recent tributes to Vonnegut included a comment by him that he believed there was a divine influence on evolution, so his use of the quote was probably meant to support this view — a view you found an anathema.
My evaluation for him as someone having an understanding of evolutionary science perhaps. not my evaluation of him as a writer or a man. As I recall, the statement was presenetd as something on the order of evolution being as likely as a 747 spontaneously being made form the parts being tossed around by a tornado, which is a bad argument for all the reasons that we went over before. As I haven’t read the actual book it came from I have no idea if that idea is presented as his actual opinion, another characters, or just Vonnegut being whimsical. Whatever the facts there, I certainly hope nobody takes it seriously as a critique of evolution.
Being possibly wrong about topics such as evolution does not disqualify a writer from being one of ther greats. Why would it?
Vonnegut was a socialist and a proud liberal, perhaps more severely than Daily Kos, who you’ve characterized as hateful.
I don’t automatically dislike people I disagree with. Vonnegut was a far more interesting guy than the writers at Daily Kos and certainly a better writer, faint praise there.
Having political positions I don’t subscribe to does not disqualify a writer from being one of the greats. Why would it?
Vonnegut said he was trying to poison the minds of people with humanity before they became generals and leaders and such, and everything I know about him are views that horrify you. What nice thing could you possibly say about him that qualifies him as “One of the great ones?”
He was a great writer and an interesting person. Sorry if my liking him somehow messes with whatever it is you’ve constructed to make sense of This Baffling World but so it goes.
To answer a question waaaaaaay up there . . .
Has anybody written a book or a novel about bloggers?
Yes. I can’t recall the title of it, but I remember reading the description when I shelved it. It looke like an odd sort of hipster angst thing. I didn’t read it.
I’m thinking about my next NaNovel being about blogs and messageboards and the consequences when a fanfic writer gives a copy of her fiction to the celebrities she’s written about.
The tentative title is “Slash”.
Vonnegut was speaking for “Kurt Vonnegut” when he cited the abiogenesis comment.
You didn’t disagree whatever qualification for the term “hateful” that applied to DailyKos also applied to Vonnegut. I’m still curious as to what it is you liked about him that allows you to overlook qualities you would despise in others. I don’t doubt they’re lurking in your noodle, I’m just wondering if you are conscious of it. Can you think of a favorite moment?
For example, he put Slapstick at the bottom of his list of works in order of quality, but it has my favorite moment of his. An old man preparing for the funeral of the stillborn baby of his teenaged granddaughter gives the story of his seemingly nonsensical life. Then he dies and the last chapter devolves into a fairytale-telling of the journey of the granddaughter to join him, picking up where Swain left off in his telling.
Vonnegut slips in I think one line about how the granddaughter was impregnated by a kidnapping and rape she managed to escape from, and then the fairytale continues for the rest of the chapter until he ends it on “And so on.” So, you see, he wrote like 300 pages of nonsense and still somehow manages to break the reader’s heart.
For the “Lonesome No More” theme of the book, tribalism as Vonnegut presents it shelters the “fairytale” of our lives so to speak, so it was appropriate for the book to end in a fairytale idiom — the fairytale that allows the granddaughter to endure the victimization Vonnegut ambushed the horrified reader with.
Viewed in context of the book’s themes, Imus savaged the fairytales of those girls, savaging the mechanism in them we all need to cope as the fairytale allowed Swain’s granddaughter to cope. Imus’s supporters deny white racism simply has a more devastating role in those black girls’ fairytales than black racism.
Now that I think about it, Vonnegut has been depressed and suicidal for over 20 years, and with what he knew, Jesus, who could blame him for being heartbroken over everything?
You didn’t disagree whatever qualification for the term “hateful” that applied to DailyKos also applied to Vonnegut.
I don’t feel obligated to address every point you make. Shocking but true. I also have not always automatically assumed that when you ignore or fail to address a point that someone makes to you it should be interpreted as agreement on your part. Should I?
I honestly don’t see much to compare the usual Daily Kos crowd with Vonnegut. For one thing– crowd does not equal person. Most of the real hate on the daily Kos site comes from the commentators and monor diarists, not Markos himself.
For another thing I suspect that one would have to read many many many days worth of daily kos posts to find the same wit you could get from a page or two of any of Vonnegut’s novel’s.
I don’t know about favorite moment, but my favorite novel is, no surprise, Slaughterhouse 5. I don’t think he ever wrote anything as great as that one again but neither have the vast majority of writers.
As we provide replies to ourselves for every point someone makes to us, I simply share all of the ones replying to posted points, chasing after unconscious reactions if I have to. I consider the practice of chasing after one’s unconscious reactions to be an exercise in trusting one’s self. If you have faith in yourself, you have no reason to fear your own unconscious workings.
As I consider some points dependent on others, by addressing the independent points, I address the dependent ones. Where my responses receive no replies, I consider my responses adequate.
Well, you’re talking about his most popular novel, which is fine. If you refer to him as great, maybe you’re like me and observed a tradition or two he shared with other creators, like the tradition of managing pretense I mentioned above leading to the Borat movie. Or whatever. Perhaps you’ll engage in an exercise of trusting in yourself to track down what you are referring to as Vonnegut’s greatness, since the answer explains what makes the views you find an anathema in others tolerable in him.
Fox News Alert:
The Earth is Round!
Seriously, News has become sensationalistic, News has become “Angelina Jolie eats at Sardi’s, we’ll have a 10 minute analysis and commentary at 11” when actually there is no substance and the real news gets buried.
Let me give you an example, 5 or so years ago I posted here on a topic Peter did, and I said I was a shiksa, someone told me Shiksa meant girl, when I thought it was Gender-neutral, another poster told me the correct term was and I apologized to Peter although, I don’t know if he ever saw it or the kickoff to it. At any rat, no harm no foul.
Now, if I had made that mistake, someone would have “Ignorant Gentile offends Jewish Sci-fi Writer” on Monday, Tuesday, the Anti-Defamation League would make comments of how disgraceful it is before wanting my ášš on a platter on Wednesday. They wouldn’t have even cared if I apologized to Peter. Thursday all 3 cable networks’ talking heads would be devoting hours of time, just to wonder if I’m insane, retarded, or promoting an ultra-conservative Christian Fundamentalist agenda. On Friday, they’d be analyzing my home life, wonder if I’ve come from a broken home, what my personal socioeconomic status is, and if I’m getting any. On Saturday, Bush’s weekly radio address bails me out, but now I’m seen as an Anti-Semitic, retarded, psychopathic, lower-middle class, ultra-conservative Christian Fundamentalist who prabably isn’t getting any.
Slow News Day? I think the last time there was hard news was when Israel invaded Lebanon… Oh No here we go again!!
Charles Waldo
I don’t accept your premise that Mr Vonnegut has very much in common with the posters at Daily Kos, so I don’t see very much use in the exercise.
I am frankly puzzled as to why there is any mystery to you on why I would consider him one of the greats (I suppose it’s a fair question to ask–one of the great what? Great writers of the 20th century, I would reply.). His politics are of no relevance to me–Slaughterhouse 5 would be as great a book were it written by a speechwriiter for barry Goldwater…to me, anyway.
Harlan Ellison is probably my favorite living writer and I rather doubt we would see eye to eye on a majority of issues (though who knows? We tend to look at only a few issues and use them to classify people politically, leaving a lot of other things unexamined). For the life of me I don’t find anything the least bit surprising about it. I would suggest, in fact, that if anyone finds that their favorite artists all share their own views they may well be needlessly denying themselves a great deal of pleasure on purely political grounds.
Why is he great? He wrote some great books taht captured the tone of the time and he was very influential to those who followed. He also brought science fiction elements into the mainstream, which is no easy feat, given the bias against it from most critics.
What is the correct term–sheygets?
I had a few Jewish girlfriends. Their folks were, if not exactly singing Hava Nagila, ok with that, but if a brother dated a shiksa…yikes!
What I find interesting is that a number of the girls I knew who wer fairly relaxed about their Jewish identity have become much more serious about it as the years have gone on. When I was in college there was a lot of talk about the loss of Jewish identity to intermarriage and smaller families and lack of interest in the culture. I wonder if that has changed across the board or if my small sample is just an abberation.
Bill, please forgive my double-take when you deny Kurt Vonnegut is hateful.
Ok, so you think Kurt Vonnegut is hateful? Or you think I think Kurt Vonnegut is hateful? Or you think I SHOULD think that Kurt Vonnegut is hateful?
I’m sorry, I just don’t see what your agenda is here or why it matters to you.
As for the passage you quote–Again, I have to apologize but it doesn’t seem to have the desired effect. Kurt Vonnegut was one of the great writers of our time. The typists at Daily Kos, conversely, are not. The fact that Mr Vonnegut may share thoughts, opinions etc with said typists changes my opinion not a bit.
I don’t know what you expect to accomplish here. Even if you give me absolute proof that Mr. Vonnegut secretly put poisoned milk into the cereal of schoolchildren it will have little effect on my opinion of him as a writer. If it really bothers you that we both like the man’s work you will have to somehow convince me that Slaughterhouse 5 is actually a lousey book. Good luck on THAT one!
Considering the quote is more severe than anything presented on the homepage of DailyKos, and you’ve characterized DailyKos as hateful, I still do the double-take how you can deny Vonnegut is hateful by your standards.
Well, now that you mention it, I consider it second to Breakfast of Champions as qualifying for his weakest novel.
Vonnegut compared writing to holding a conversation in a restaurant: you speak to your table to hold their interest while speaking clearly enough to allow anyone listening in to grasp the appeal with which you hold your intended audience. He said you should write to hold the attention of one person… something about trying to make love to the world and you wind up catching cold.
Slaughterhouse 5 seemed to trip over who its intended audience was. It had an innovative critique of Christianity, but seemed like a lot of exposition on the fatalistic nature of time and he gave no character you felt compelled to root for. Can you remember any funny lines from it?
In Hocus Pocus, he did this odd build up to where the character meets the son he never knew he had, but was careful to speak so as not to dispel all the lies he told his mother about his identity and accomplishments. For Galapagos, he had Kilgore Trout greeting the book’s narrator, Trout’s son, at the opening of the blue tunnel leading to the afterlife, and Kilgore getting so pìššëd øff at Leon wanting to see what was going to happen next, he closed the tunnel on Leon for a million years. Bluebeard had the witty banter of the pill-popping Circe Berman. In Jailbird, he led us into the mind of homeless billionaire Mary Kathleen O’Looney. In Timequake, which also addressed the fatalistic nature of time, he, as the narrator, greets us in the middle of the book from the year 2010 and ambushes us with a funny outcome.
And in Slaughterhouse 5 he gives us the indifferent Billy Pilgim. You say he hasn’t written anything great since then, but almost all of his books afterward seemed more engaging than it.
Bill,
“His politics are of no relevance to me–…”
See, there’s your problem. You’re trying to discuss a topic that involves understanding the nuance and concept of separating an artist’s sociopolitical views or opinion essays from his fictional work with someone who seemed unable to grasp the conceptual difference between one death and thousands of deaths.
I’m not much of a fan of Vonnegut’s opinion essay work, but I can still enjoy the fiction works he did where he injected those ideas into the storytelling. I enjoyed the slightly dark whimsy in stories like Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow and loved Slaughterhouse 5.
Differing opinions or political points of view need not mean one cannot enjoy a well crafted story. Take PAD as an example since it’s pretty well established that I am a fan of his work. PAD often throws his POV into his stories. Some I agree with, some I don’t. His Crazy 8 story was for me, at least politically, contrived, heavy-handed and rather weak. It was still well written, well structured and enjoyable as a piece of fiction.
Micha brought up the controversies surrounding Wagner in another thread. Love his works. He was a great composer, but apparently he was a lousy human being.
You and I can both likely rattle of loads of actors and directors who hold radically differing views from our own that we still find enjoyable. The skill of an actor or director, and thus the enjoyment of their skills, is not based on his or her voting record or views on affirmative action, gun control or Hiroshima.
Vonnegut was a great writer. He created enjoyable works of fiction that were admired by many for a plethora of reasons. His personal leanings don’t enter into that. Most sane human beings can wrap their minds around that. The other group can’t.
You’re also attempting to discuss something with a nut who seems determined to pick a fight over anything tonight. Go check out the Q&A thread. He’s seemingly picked some random poster, applied his Bizzaro logic to the guy’s question and then called him out for criticizing HIS question. No, really. Go check it out. It’s so sad it’s almost funny. Probably confused the other guy to no end.
But, hey, fire away all night. We all need our little amusements from time to time. For all I know, you’ve members or extended members of the Clan Mulligan over for a weekend’s visit and you’re showing them the “comedy” stylings of our resident Bizzaro World refugee for twisted laughs. Hey, where else can you introduce them to performance art that simultaneously amuses and bores the viewer senseless?
Posted by: Micha at April 14, 2007 07:48 AM
“EU sources”
The European Union?
Sorry. EU = Expanded Universe.
Wouldn’t Palpatine want to bring up Luke the way he brought up Mara Jade? Wouldn’t he want him to grow up and train from early age under his thumb? He could easily have kept him hidden from Vader. But maybe it is better for him that they start good and then corrupt? Or maybe he wanted Luke to go through Jedi training? Or maybe he wanted Luke to lead him to the remaining Jedi? Many possibilities.
Well, if we accept, for the sake of argument, that Palpatine knew about at least Luke all along, you actually touch on one of the possibilities I like the most. I find it probable that a fallen champion is somehow more powerful than somebody who’s simply fed hate from an early age. From a dramatic standpoint, it is a recurring theme in storytelling throughout the ages, in keeping with the “Monomyth” structure of the Star Wars saga. Plus, such a manipulation and fall would be much more appealing to Palpatine’s twisted sensibilities.
Besides, I’ve always had the impression that Palpatine was always far too overconfident and in love with his own plots and machinations.
-Rex Hondo-
Huh.
I tell everyone I had lunch with Bill Mulligan… and it triggers a lengthy discussion about the order of the Jedi Knights. The only thing that’s scarier… is that it all seems to make perfect sense.
We are really, seriously weird.
Oh, if I had a dime for every time a lengthy geek digression was triggered by something seemingly unrelated and completely innocuous…
-Rex Hondo-
Posted by: Bill Mulligan at April 14, 2007 10:58 PM:
“What is the correct term–sheygets?”
Good for you Bill. I only found out that that’s the meaning of the term recently (not Jewish male, as opposed to shiksa, which is female). It also has other meanings. When I wanted to refer to a non Jewish male in a funny way I used to call him ‘Shiks’.
If anybody has a reason to be offended by these terms it’s not-Jews. However, this is another one of those cases where the term’s meaning does not have the negative connotation it used to. It’s more about the attitude of a Jew to somebody non-Jewish, usually possessing qualities Jews feel they lack.
“I had a few Jewish girlfriends. Their folks were, if not exactly singing Hava Nagila, ok with that, but if a brother dated a shiksa…yikes!”
This could be because according to Jewish religious law (for those who care about it) Judaism is passed by the mother. Or they could just be more protective of the boys because of a lingering patriarchal attitude.
“What I find interesting is that a number of the girls I knew who wer fairly relaxed about their Jewish identity have become much more serious about it as the years have gone on. When I was in college there was a lot of talk about the loss of Jewish identity to intermarriage and smaller families and lack of interest in the culture. I wonder if that has changed across the board or if my small sample is just an abberation.”
This goes to what I was talking earlier about the tension between the wish to assure the continuance of a unique cultural identity, and the welcoming of the assimilating aspects of American society such as intermarriage. Obviously, the more you assimilate the more effort it takes to keep aspects of the unique identity, especially for Jews who have no phyisical characteristic, a different religion, and are not that many. My sister is studying in Berkley now and she finds herselfgoing to trouble to celebrate holidays that here in Israel were so self evident it took little effort.
Sometimes I read articles claiming the Jewish community is shrinking in the US. But I don’t know how true it is. As I understand it American Jews try to find a blance between the two tensions, sometimes more successfully, sometimes less. It seems like hard work.
———————–
Posted by: Jerry Chandler at April 15, 2007 01:16 AM:
“Micha brought up the controversies surrounding Wagner in another thread. Love his works. He was a great composer, but apparently he was a lousy human being.”
If Jews threw out all creators who held antisemitic opinions, we’d have a very diminished cultural horrizons.
———————–
Posted by: Rex Hondo at April 15, 2007 02:28 AM
“”EU sources”
The European Union?
Sorry. EU = Expanded Universe.”
No need to appologize. I didn’t know the term but I was also being silly.
I agree with your thoughts about Palpatine completely. Maybe somebody will one day write his story.
——————–
Posted by: Bill Myers at April 15, 2007 05:47 AM:
“I tell everyone I had lunch with Bill Mulligan… and it triggers a lengthy discussion about the order of the Jedi Knights. The only thing that’s scarier… is that it all seems to make perfect sense.”
Well of course. The connection is plainly observable. It baffles me that you can’t see it.
I always assumed you were Bill Mulligan’s apprentice.
Okay, as long as we’re digressing like crazy here…
A friend of mine got me in to see “Revenge of the Sith” for free. And no, we didn’t sneak in! My friend’s wife works for a company that was treating customers to a free screening of the movie, and they invited me to tag along.
Anyway, cutting to the chase, after the closing credits began to roll, my friend turned to me and jokingly asked, “What do you Episode IV is going to be about?”
“I’m thinking either a romantic comedy or a musical,” I replied.
And in Slaughterhouse 5 he gives us the indifferent Billy Pilgim. You say he hasn’t written anything great since then, but almost all of his books afterward seemed more engaging than it.
Actual quote: I don’t think he ever wrote anything as great as that one
“as great” NOT “I don’t think he ever wrote anything great after that one”. As great.
It’s impossible to talk to you Mike, even when you are keeping the nastiness in check. If you can’t accept what’s said you make it into something unsaid.
But, hey, fire away all night. We all need our little amusements from time to time. For all I know, you’ve members or extended members of the Clan Mulligan over for a weekend’s visit and you’re showing them the “comedy” stylings of our resident Bizzaro World refugee for twisted laughs. Hey, where else can you introduce them to performance art that simultaneously amuses and bores the viewer senseless?
I’ve left Clan Mulligan (truer than you know, we have 3 houses on one street, a position of strength we use to bully Clan Kappler and Clan Parisi) and am back in North Carolin, bringing bad weather with me, it seems. Hey, but the people I left are in far worse shape, with a Nor’easter a-coming. Ha ha, suckers.
Besides, I’ve always had the impression that Palpatine was always far too overconfident and in love with his own plots and machinations.
Yeah, he did have that fatal James Bond villain complex going there.
I tell everyone I had lunch with Bill Mulligan… and it triggers a lengthy discussion about the order of the Jedi Knights. The only thing that’s scarier… is that it all seems to make perfect sense.
Do you remember the part where I waved my hand at you and you suddenly insisted on paying the bill?
This could be because according to Jewish religious law (for those who care about it) Judaism is passed by the mother.
Duh, yes of course, it makes perfect sense.
I always assumed you were Bill Mulligan’s apprentice.
Which got me to thinking about how Bill myers would look with a braid. Unfortunately I did it while drinking coffee and now I have a mess to clean up.
“… bringing bad weather with me, it seems.”
No kidding. You slammed the heck out of us on your way through. Thanks.