As I feared, the previous thread on Virginia Tech is rapidly escalating into partisan politics discussion. So I am asking that all posters on that thread restrict their commments to extending condolences or, if they actually knew Jamie (as friends typically called Christopher) share their recollections. In the meantime, feel free to use this space to discuss broader societal issues.
I think here’s what we can expect to see over the next months, as we move beyond shock and disbelief into anger.
1) Law suits filed by aggrieved families against Virginia Tech authorities for their failure to lock down the campus in the intervening two hours, while investigations are held to determine whether Virginia Tech authorites were to blame.
2) Considering the theme of parental abuse that reveals itself in the shooter’s unproduced play scripts, investigations into the shooter’s parents to determine if there was indeed child abuse present. If so, possible law suits on the basis that their abuse resulted in their son’s actions and therefore they bear responsibility.
3) Advocates of gun control holding this up as another example of how gun laws should be made stricter, considering that the shooter acquired his weapon legally.
4) Advocates of unrestricted gun ownership holding this up as another example of how gun laws should be abolished because if everyone in the college had been packing, they could have fought back. Because in a confined environment where there’s inevitably going to be drinking, partying, intense romances, and scads of young people lacking many aspects of maturity, that’s what you really want to have on a daily basis: Lots of firepower.
5) An upswing in incidents of students who write essays/poems/short stories themed around violence suddenly finding themselves tagged as potential shooters and being suspended or expelled.
PAD
• 
As I said, BBayliss, Vick cannot win.
If he donates anonymously, people wonder why he’s not out there doing something publicly, since he is probably the most famous VTech alum around right now.
But since he did do it publicly, he gets to put up with comments like yours, instead of people just recognizing the fact that he did SOMETHING positive.
Which leads one to wonder: why bother doing anything positive when you’re just going to be given šhìŧ for it?
The videos NBC has released are sickening and are just further twisting a knife into the hearts of the bereaved. They should’ve just turned them over to the FBI and been done with it.
He’s a private citizen off the football field, I don’t care if he donates or doesn’t donate. You may be correct in saying someone people would be upset if he DIDN’T make a donation as a prominent VT grad, but I don’t represent that mindset.
To recap, my complaint is twofold: One, that, again, this was a STAGED PR event. DOn’t do something like this and say “HEY!! LOOK AT ME, I MADE A DONATION!” and then only donate $10.00.
Two, how much inproportionate media exposure is he going to be given on ESPN, newspapers, etc. The media would be better off using that alotted time to present stories of the victims.
Bill Myers: Matt Lauer sure had an opinion about that this morning on the Today show. It seemed as though every other question to his guests was: “Should we (NBC) have aired this video?”
“I have NO grudge against Michael Vick. I have no opinion of him one way or the other, other than he’s probably the best rushing QB since Randall Cunningham. I wouldn’t care if this was Michael Vick, Bernie Kosar, Mike Ditka or AJ Hawk making this small of a donation. My anger would be the same.
Again, Bobb, my point is that this is a STAGED PR event. He could have anonymously donated it. He could have mailed them a check but no, his PR handlers called the media, said “Hey, we have a feel good VT massacre-related story for you involving one of the NFL superstars!”
So your next logical question would be what do I think is the appropriate donation? I’ve always felt the 5% tithing is a nice number. 10% if you are financially well off.”
We’re not talking about what an appropriate tip to leave your waitress here. I didn’t realize there was a Miss Manners rule for donating money to people who’s children have just been gunned down in the worst US shooting ever.
All I know of Vick’s donation is this: It’s for $10,000, it’s in cooperatio with The United Way, and it’s for the families of the victims. I don’t know that his PR people called anyone to announce it. I do know he made some comments on it. Not to surprising, as it’s been said and I agree, he’s maybe the best rushing QB playing today, and could be one of the best of all time if things go well for him.
Insulting? To who, other tha BBayliss? Are the families that are going to get this money insulted? Are they going to feel so affronted that Mr. Moneybags…under no obligation whatsoever to lend a hand in the first place…didn’t lend a bigger hand?
Whatever. At least Vicki’s doing something, other than flapping his internet lips about how other people aren’t doing anything or enough.
Truly, I agree with Craig on this: if this is the reaction you get when all you’re trying to do is help out, why bother? So next time we have a big tragedy, and no rich and famous folks step up to help, I hope we don’t see BBayliss leading the charge calling for them to do something.
For those interested, here’s the yahoo news blurb on Vick’s actions:
“ATLANTA (AP) — Atlanta Falcons quarterback Michael Vick has teamed up with the United Way to donate $10,000 to assist families affected by the massacre at Virginia Tech, his former school.
“When tragic things like this happen, families have enough to deal with, and if I can help in some small way, that’s the least I can do,” said Vick, who played for the Hokies before being drafted No. 1 overall by the Falcons in 2001.
The Vick Foundation is collecting donations from local communities in both Atlanta and Virginia that will be placed in the United In Caring Fund for Victims of the VA Tech Tragedy and the special fund at the United Way of Montgomery, Radford and Floyd counties, which serves the Virginia Tech area.
Vick’s foundation said the money will be used to provide help with funeral expenses, transportation for family members and other support services.”
So is it PR? Sure…for his freaking foundation that’s set up to help other people. Like in this instance,to help with funeral expenses. Which can easily run past $10K, and most people probably don’t have enough life insurance out on their kids to pay those expenses, if they even have life insurance for their kids.
And if he’s collecting funds, chances are he’ll get far more than $10,000.
Watching Lauer this morning on the Today show I thought of the early line by Crow in Mystery Science Theater 3000: The Movie:
“I calculated the odds of this succeeding versus the odds I was doing something incredibly stupid, and…I went ahead anyway.”
Timothy McVeigh faced justice, and in the end, what justice can you really give somebody who had killed so many? Their single death does not balance the scales, as it were.
I found the discussion of McVeigh’s fate revealed something interesting about the attitude toward capital punishment in the US. I was listening to a lot of NPR talk radio at the time, and there was a striking pattern to the opinions: Callers who normally opposed capital punishment tended to feel that if it was ever justified, it was in this case . Callers who normally supported capital punishment tended to feel that it shouldn’t be used on McVeigh…because it wasn’t severe enough, and life in prison (presumably under suitably harsh conditions) would be more fitting.
I don’t know if that Means Something or what (or if NPR’s screening process tended to weed out the real extremists). I think it does highlight something about the nature of justice: that it’s based on perception, not some hard equation where justice exists if the two sides more or less balance. (I’m reasonably sure this plays into many people’s perception of the insanity plea, for that matter.)
I live in Hartselle Alabama (small town). After everything that has happened at VT this week, yesterday I receive word from my son that his High School is on lockdown because someone has posted on their myspace account that they are going to go to the school and make it look like Columbine (along with a few expletives). My first thought after worry for my children was “here we go with the copycat situations” and who would be so sick as to post this at this time thinking it makes them look Big? Then the scary reality set in last night when the local news informed everyone that the posting had been created Monday, even before VT, by a disgruntled student that had been expelled for some pretty troubling issues and was now living in South Carolina. My thoughts and prayers go out to everyone involved in the tragedy at VT. I guess what I am trying to say is that this kind of thing can happen anywhere and that life is too short not to tell your loved ones how much you care about them. Let’s just keep that in the back of our minds as we try to make sense of this situation.
James
James, that is scary as hëll. It sounds like the authorities caught this in time, but God dámņ that is too close for comfort.
All the best to you and your family. Stay safe.
James,
Ðámņ.
You guys in the Hartselle area have had a hëll of a year. I Googled…
Hartselle Alabama school lockdown
… and a few variations of that and got lots of stories for different incidents from the last few months. As much as it was causing problems before, it’s got to be hitting a lot of the people involved in the prior scares pretty hard in the gut right now over what could have been.
Stay safe and take care of your family.
I found the discussion of McVeigh’s fate revealed something interesting about the attitude toward capital punishment in the US. I was listening to a lot of NPR talk radio at the time, and there was a striking pattern to the opinions: Callers who normally opposed capital punishment tended to feel that if it was ever justified, it was in this case . Callers who normally supported capital punishment tended to feel that it shouldn’t be used on McVeigh…because it wasn’t severe enough, and life in prison (presumably under suitably harsh conditions) would be more fitting.
*********************
SER: I’m an atheist and believe life in prison is far too humane for murderers. They basically get to continue doing what their victims cannot: Seeing the sunrise, reading a good book, listening to music, and so on.
If I were religious, I would oppose the death penalty because I would have faith in a true justice after death — as an atheist, I don’t have that option. McVeigh and Mother Theresa all wind up in the same place.
5) An upswing in incidents of students who write essays/poems/short stories themed around violence suddenly finding themselves tagged as potential shooters and being suspended or expelled.
This is the one that scares me in opposite directions.
Having been a young, fledgling writer myself and having known very many of them, I know that kids LOVE to go all out with violence, sex, bad behavior, and anything else that will pìšš øff people because they’re testing themselves and going off of the things they see in the media. (Curious observation: The really nasty stuff comes from otherwise nice and happy girls!)
I’m afraid for these kids because even though they need to and will learn to temper their works, far too many will be wrongly accused of being monsters when they’re just testing themselves. If we let kids and young adults get punished for exploring their dark sides, even when they go too far creatively, we’ll destroy the sparks of those who could be our great creative minds.
But, on the other hand, I have reached the point where if someone is writing nasty, violent, sicko stuff AND is displaying other signs of mental illness like having few friends, scaring people outside of fiction, etc like the shooter did then I don’t want those people walking on the street. I think that if someone is showing the signs of committing these types of acts (not just one sign but multiple and obvious signs) then they should be committed. I know this could turn bad very badly with innocent people being institutionalized and drugged, but it’s something we should think about. Perhaps from that idea we come up with a more concrete plan to identify these types of people and stop them, or perhaps even save them, before they go on a rampage.
James–
if I was there I’d be scared as hëll. Take care of yourself snd your family. Keep you eyes open.
Everybody else, do the same wherever you are.
If I were religious, I would oppose the death penalty because I would have faith in a true justice after death — as an atheist, I don’t have that option. McVeigh and Mother Theresa all wind up in the same place.
Interesting. I’m also an atheist and my reasoning is precisely the opposite; if an innocent person gets executed wrongly and there’s an afterlife, then they get all eternity to get the mistake made up to them. Since I don’t think there is (and since I don’t think true justice is something fallible humanity is capable of achieving or even inarguably defining), taking an irreversible action that could be wrong just has the potential to create further injustice–and with no takebacks.
Of course, this is a textbook example of how what appear to be polar opposite views are actually views on two related but different topics…
>>And, as I said before, I have no idea why it’s important to know how many of the students fought back before they were shot. This was not a video game or a Rambo movies. It was not an opportunity for people who were not there to live out some kind of macho fantasy. It was real people who were facing an ambush from an armed assailant.
My god… If someone has to explain WHY you fight back in a situation like this, then just take yourself out of this discussion. It is Fight or Flight Instinct. Your obviously a Flight person, which isn’t all that bad, you apparently are just the type of person that needs someone to fight for them.
It’s not a “Macho thing”. It’s a life or death thing, and sometimes, you have to fight to live. If you hide, well… dont make the fighters seem like braindead primates.
Thanks for the kind comments, but I know how to handle my PTSD, by avoiding stuff that sets it off. My earlier post was my wondering about the people who deliberatly subject themselves to that kind of entertainment.
I recall a book about film noir, Dark City,, referring to Dirty Harry Callahan as “hate franchised as heroism.” It applies even more to the Saw movies and this weekend’s film thrillers, Disturbia and Vacancy. And as a result, the many victims killed in these movies – conventional people that the audience can identify with – are declared worthless. People who deserve to die. It’s like a documentary about Buchenwald where the SS are the heroes, and everyone who attends gets a little plastic gas chamber to take home.
What kind of mindset do you have to possess to pay money to be told you’re worthless? I mean, I can see it in most organized religions, but in entertainment?
My god… If someone has to explain WHY you fight back in a situation like this, then just take yourself out of this discussion.
I understand what the “fight or flight” impulse is. What I don’t understand why a cowardly jáçkášš like “Robert Preston” feels the need to pass judgment on a situation where he was not there by counting the number of fighters and thereby, denigrating those that choose “flight”.
I think it’s tasteless in the extreme to hide behind your keyboard and talk about how if only you were there, you (or your son) would have been the one who bravely rushed the gunman and disarmed him.
“So I’m not convinced it’s just the presence of guns that does things. There’s something cultural as well.”
That’s for sure. D.C. has the highest murder rate in the country, and the strictest gun control laws. The guns per capita are extremely low, yet the murders keep happening. Montana has the highest gun per capita rate in the country, and increadily low murder stats.
Murder and other violent crimes are economic and cultural issues. Last time I checked Jack the Ripper didn’t use a gun to disembowell the høøkërš. People who want to kill will always kill.
When all is said and done, monsters are monsters. This kid was a monster. You want to try to understand what would cause him to do this? Fine, because it’s good to look at long term societal health. But I don’t need to think hard to figure out who or what to blame this horrible tragedy on, and it’s one person (hint, it’s not Bill Clinton or W. Bush).
“It’s not a “Macho thing”. It’s a life or death thing, and sometimes, you have to fight to live. If you hide, well… dont make the fighters seem like braindead primates. “
No one really is. But no one should talk garbage about the victims either. The thing that the Robert Prestons of the world don’t get is that their steady diet of Die Hard movie marathon nights and a bit of time playing on the firing range means jack s**t when real life slaps you in the face.
No one can say what they will do in a situation like they had at Tech. No one. Anyone who claims to know 100% what they would do is a fool or a liar.
“Your obviously a Flight person, which isn’t all that bad, you apparently are just the type of person that needs someone to fight for them.”
Come back and dish out the insults once you’ve been in a situation like that. Until then, you’re talking out your backside.
Oh, and check this out. Adds some stuff to how and why he got his guns.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18217741/site/newsweek/
>>Come back and dish out the insults once you’ve been in a situation like that. Until then, you’re talking out your backside.
Well Jerry, unfortunately for your pitch, I HAVE BEEN DIRECTLY THREATENED WITH A GUN BEFORE. I simply reacted physically by punching the mugger in the throat because he was so close and drove the person away from me and my friend. The gun may not have been loaded, but when it’s sticking in your face, you should think differently when a finger twitch could end your life.
So, guys like you can guess who they “might” react in a life or death situation, I know how I will react. I’m sure this will be followed up calling my physical reaction “reckless, stupid, not thinking of worse case scenarios, ect.” but we both walked away unharmed and with our money in our wallets. And this isn’t the only time I had fight or flight save my life of another, my instincts also saved myself and a roommate when my house was on fire and we had to get out not knowing how bad the fire was.
I’m not talking Smack, I just get disappointed when people would rather curl up then lash out. Fighting back, defending yourself, and others should be a natural instinct, and it shouldn’t be frowned upon as your trying to emulate a friggin movie, at least as some people see it. I can certainly admit that Die Hard or Rambo action films were the last things on my mind.
Posted by: Nivek at April 20, 2007 12:13 AM
My god… If someone has to explain WHY you fight back in a situation like this, then just take yourself out of this discussion.
Consider this an “open letter” to Robert Preston, Nivek, and anyone else who is tempted to join them in pìššìņg all over the memories of the victims of this massacre:
SHUT. THE FÙÇK. UP.
I mean it. Just SHUT your FÙÇKÍNG MOUTHS.
There are plenty of things that are fair game for discussion here: gun control, campus security, mental illness, U.S. culture. But to imply that the victims of this massacre were cowards if they fled for their lives? That betrays a level of stupidity and infantile self-absorption that is beyond the pale.
People are mourning. Do you get that? PEOPLE. ARE. MOURNING!!!!!!!!!!!! Actual human beings. Not characters in an action movie.
Robert Preston is likely to threaten me again, but this has to be said: anyone… ANYONE… who implies that the victims who fled were cowards is a coward him or herself. I’ve known people who have been in real life-threatening situations, like cops and soliders, and NONE of them would EVER speak like that.
To everyone else: I’m sorry for any disruption this may cause but I am LIVID at the lack of decency some people are demonstrating. People fûçkìņg DIED in this massacre and other people’s hearts are bleeding with grief. I find it UNBELIEVABLE that there are people out there who are so desperate to pretend that they’re something they’re not that they would DARE piss on the memories of these victims.
Posted by: Nivek at April 20, 2007 12:13 AM
My god… If someone has to explain WHY you fight back in a situation like this, then just take yourself out of this discussion.
Consider this an “open letter” to Robert Preston, Nivek, and anyone else who is tempted to join them in pìššìņg all over the memories of the victims of this massacre:
SHUT. UP.
I mean it. Just SHUT your MOUTHS.
There are plenty of things that are fair game for discussion here: gun control, campus security, mental illness, U.S. culture. But to imply that the victims of this massacre were cowards if they fled for their lives? That betrays a level of stupidity and infantile self-absorption that is beyond the pale.
People are mourning. Do you get that? PEOPLE. ARE. MOURNING!!!!!!!!!!!! Actual human beings. Not characters in an action movie.
No one… NO ONE… has the right to imply that anyone who fled this rampage was a coward. I’ve known people who have been in real life-threatening situations, like cops and soliders, and NONE of them would EVER speak like that.
To everyone else: I’m sorry for any disruption this may cause but I am LIVID at the lack of decency some people are demonstrating. People DIED in this massacre and other people’s hearts are bleeding with grief. I find it UNBELIEVABLE that there are people out there who would DARE piss on the memories of these victims.
Nivek, just read your response, and my message to you remains the same:
SHUT. YOUR. MOUTH.
Don’t care that you claim to be some kind of Steve Seagal type of badass. Don’t care if you’ve punched an armed mugger. This is a time for MOURNING, not a time for second-guessing and criticizing innocent victims. Any decent individual would recongize that. If you can’t… then you have some soul-seraching to do.
You know, as soon as I hit the submit button on my last two posts, I realized what a mistake I’d made.
Because those posts will do nothing more than trigger more trash-talking from the Robert Prestons and Niveks of this world. They won’t back down. They’ll just keep digging themselves deeper and deeper into a hole. And as a result, I’ll be responsible for provoking them into saying things that are hurtful to anyone who lost a loved one in this massacre.
So, to everyone who is not Robert Preston and Nivek, I apologize for acting in anger without regard for the consequences of my actions. I will let this be my last word on the subject, in hopes that I will at the very least be removing a small amount of fuel from the fire.
Nivek,
Surely it’s a situational thing though. If the person with the gun is 20 feet away and shooting people at random then hiding and running away become better options because if he can’t see you he can’t shoot you and the chances of you bared handed being able to do anything effective at that distance is remote and may actually make you a target where you wheren’t one before.
Fight or flight is all about survival and the choice you make should be the one that gives you the best chance for that. So depending on the situation neither one is necessarily right or wrong, you just have choose the best one and hope you make the best choice to allow you and others go on living.
How many of the victims had the kind of training or upbringing to deal in the “fight” mode when faced with a madman weilding two pistols and having shown that he knows how to use them and a willingness to use them?
How close did this lunatic let people get before he shot them?
Let’s see, run all the way across the room at a guy with guns, or try to get out of the line of fire? Hmmm… can you run faster than a bullet to get to him before his bullets kill you? I doubt it.
Your mugger situation and this one are completely different. The mugger was stupid enough to get into physical range, and he didn’t want to kill you, he just wanted your money.
The VA Tech Lunatic didn’t want people close to him, and he didn’t want anyone’s wallet, he just wanted to KILL. You’d be a dead man if you’d been there.
I’ll leave it to your imagination, Cowboy Nivek…
That’s for sure. D.C. has the highest murder rate in the country, and the strictest gun control laws. The guns per capita are extremely low, yet the murders keep happening. Montana has the highest gun per capita rate in the country, and increadily low murder stats.
I’ve always figured that population density was a factor there. The more people you squeeze into an area, the more likely they are to rub each other the wrong way, it’s harder to get away from people altogether, and there’s more chance of being close to somebody who deals with it lethally. Montana has the lowest population density of any US state (6.19/square mile); if DC were a state it would have the highest (9,015/square mile). That has to be a significant factor in the relative crime rates.
(I agree culture plays a part as well. Japan has a high population density as well–Tokyo’s is half again as high as DC’s–and a mass media at least as violent as the US’s, but they have a much lower crime rate. They also have a culture that places much more emphasis on fitting in, while the value US culture places on individualism sometimes expresses itself as selfishness and belligerence. That has to be a factor as well.)
Here’s the thing that Nivek, Robert Preston, and others who believe that they are superior to the VT shooting victims fail to understand:
They. Weren’t. There.
Was there an opportunity to rush the shooter while he was running through the halls shooting randomly? I don’t know. You don’t know. No one in this form knows. To pass judgment on multiple shooting victims based on an AP article you read is the mark of a jáçkášš.
I don’t know if Nivek’s story about punching a mugger is true or not. And I don’t care. Every situation involving guns is different. Sometimes, fighting may be a viable option. Sometimes flight is the better choice.
Anyone who sits there safely typing away and claims to know how the dead students and professors should have acted is a jáçkášš. Not only is it disrespectful to their families, it’s impossible to do.
Because you weren’t there.
I know how I will react. I’m sure this will be followed up calling my physical reaction “reckless, stupid, not thinking of worse case scenarios, ect.” but we both walked away unharmed and with our money in our wallets.
This reminds me of people who say seat belts are unnecessary because they were in an accident once when they didn’t wear one and they were able to walk away. That doesn’t prove seat belts are unnecessary; it proves you got lucky.
“Posted by: Doug Atkinson at April 20, 2007 08:28 AM
That’s for sure. D.C. has the highest murder rate in the country, and the strictest gun control laws. The guns per capita are extremely low, yet the murders keep happening. Montana has the highest gun per capita rate in the country, and increadily low murder stats.
I’ve always figured that population density was a factor there. The more people you squeeze into an area, the more likely they are to rub each other the wrong way, it’s harder to get away from people altogether, and there’s more chance of being close to somebody who deals with it lethally. Montana has the lowest population density of any US state (6.19/square mile); if DC were a state it would have the highest (9,015/square mile). That has to be a significant factor in the relative crime rates.”
Isn’t DC also close to areas where the gun laws are very lax? the fact hat it’s hard to get a gun in DC is quite meaningless if you can easily get one after driving for half a hour. Also, guns are not the only factor in crime. Clearly DC has a greater crime problem than Montana. The accessibiility of guns is therefore much more significant in DC.
————-
About fight or flight. it is not that complicated.
1) There is more than one normal reaction to being under fire, so judging people is wrong. Also, not everyone can and should be a hero, and there are different kinds of heroism. To keep yourself calm and safe or to help your friends get to safety is also quite heroic under such circumstances.
2) To jump a mugger whose close to you, or even a shooter, if you are close enough, is a risky but sensible. Just as running away or taking cover are. To try to attack a shooter who is far from you, when you are unarmed and untrained, and the shooter shhoting all over the place, is very risky and not very sensible.
3) A person possessing a gun and trained in its use and in conduct under fire could do something to disable a shooter, if he’s close, but there is a risk of adding to the chaos, so think carefully. The first consideration is not being a cowboy but protecting your own life and the securing the lives of others. Moving away from the danger is often the best policy. Especially if you are not well trained to handle such a situation. For a bunch of students to draw guns and start hunting for this guy would have been very dangerous.
4) Bravado, especially the empty kind, is very different from heroism.
> I’ve always figured that population density was a factor there. The more people you squeeze into an area, the more likely they are to rub each other the wrong way…
Someone beat me to pointing out Tokyo, but I believe the Netherlands also have a relatively high population density (albeit a low overall population count) yet still have a relatively low murder rate.
You know, as soon as I hit the submit button on my last two posts, I realized what a mistake I’d made.
You didn’t, Bill. You really didn’t. It needed to be said.
I’ve got some thoughts on the whole gun control thing (unrelated to the VT shootings), but I think I’ll save them for a time when I have a little more time to think through what I’m writing.
TWL
As far as Nivek simply doesn’t understand passivity in the face of mortal danger, I don’t necessarily see his concerns as pìššìņg on the memories of the victims.
Perhaps the reply you need to hear starts with that most people only know who they are from how other people see them. As far as others accept the public role you adopt, that is enough confirmation for most people to accept that identity for themselves as well.
As far as most people have no experience interacting with someone trying to kill them, the challenge to their identity may be so severe it may create a paralyzing existential identity-crisis. Depending on the degree you’ve constructed your own identity, you may not relate to suffering an existential crisis from such a challenge to your identity — but that doesn’t mean your sense of self is invulnerable.
Consider your alternative of nurturing aggression: what are we going to do with a generation of Travis Bickles who haven’t inherited a life they consider worth living?
Y’know, Nivek…I don’t think anyone here really asked you to explain why it’s possibly important to fight back in certain situations. 9-11 was only 6 years or so ago…pretty much everyone here on this board was around for that. We understand that at some point resistance is anything but futile, and in fact at times remains your only real choice, aside from rolling over and accepting your death.
But here’s the thing…we’re not talking about you facing a mugger, suddenly and up close. We’re not talking about a plane on it’s way to be used as a bomb, with only the passengers on it able to do anything to stop it. We’re talking about an armed guy, clearly intent on his own death, out to cause as much death as he can before he dies. As others have said, had you been there, and with your prior “success” facing a weapon, you’d likely be dead. Maybe some ballistic expert would be able to tell you were charging the shooter, and surmise that you were trying to “fight back.” Maybe not. Maybe someone would have seen you, and mentioned what it looked like you were trying to do, and perhaps you’d get a nice news piece about attempted heroism
Of course, you’d still be dead.
Is your response “I’d rather be killed trying to defend myself, than survive cowering in a closet?” I sort of think so, because that seems to be what your saying. You say someone that runs in the face of mortal danger “isn’t all that bad.” And maybe you really meant “isn’t bad,” but what you actually said was that someone that runs first isn’t as good as someone that fights first.
Others have likely thought bad names at you, some have directly used them toward you. Here’s what I call you…Lucky. Lucky that the mugger you faced was probably more scared than you were. Lucky that he didn’t have his finger on the trigger, as your punch would likely have caused it to go off. Lucky you were able to incapacitate him enough to either drive him off or allow yourself to run away. Lucky he didn’t decide to chase you and shoot you while you were running away for the humiliation you caused him.
Hëll, you were so lucky that night, you probably could have hit several state’s lotteries.
In the face of mortal danger, I’m sure we’d all like to think that we’d fight back. Thing is, you weren’t in mortal danger. You were being robbed. You weren’t facing someone hellbent on killing you, and not caring if they were killed in the process. So coming here and trying to make yourself appear to be some kind of expert in the face of life and death situations rings blatantly hollow to everyone here. The fact that you manage to drag 32 victims deaths through the mud in the process really shows what level of person you are.
Generally, if I were to go on the offensive in a lethal situation, I’d want to go in with all the odds stacked in my favor.
Nivek and his ilk, in their overweening machismo (and it IS a macho attitude) is acting stupidly. ANd it IS stupid, beause you don’t know if you can take him out, you don’t know what the firepower situation is, you don’t know the tactical situation.
First thing they teach in martial arts classes…learn how to run. You only engage when there’s no choice.
Nivek: “Well Jerry, unfortunately for your pitch, I HAVE BEEN DIRECTLY THREATENED WITH A GUN BEFORE. I simply reacted physically by punching the mugger in the throat because he was so close and drove the person away from me and my friend.”
I’ll accept that scenario. But, not to pick nits too fine, I was talking about an active shooter situation like at Tech.
I was talking about a situation where the shooter is actually shooting people and is a wee bit more then an arms reach away. I know two guys who are former officers who had dealt with close range situations like that (hëll, I have) and performed admirably in them. One is an former officer because he got in a gun fight and killed a person. He couldn’t deal with that. The other is a former officer because he froze in a situation involving gunfire. He could deal blades and guns that weren’t actually fired at him, but having bullets coming at him just locked him up.
We train with simmunitions rounds in active shooter and other emergency situations. Lots of real guns firing all around you and hard as hëll fancy pant rounds being shot at you. It’s the closest you’ll get to a situation like that without actually being in it. I do fine. The guys I train with do fine. But, the thing is, that’s fun for us. There’s no fear of death because we know that there’s no bullets in use. The worst that we might get is a bad surface wound if a sim round catches our skin wrong. None of us claim to “know” what we’ll do in a real situation or even what the real deal is like. The closest we get to saying anything like that is saying that, when the ship hits the sand, we hope our training kicks in and overrides instinct.
I’ll give you credit on your experience, but it’s nothing like what went down at Tech. You still have no idea what you would really do when facing down a man who’s already shooting at you from ten, fifteen or twenty feet away rather then just saying he will from arms length. That’s the situation I was talking about.
Bill Myers: “People are mourning. Do you get that? PEOPLE. ARE. MOURNING!!!!!!!!!!!! Actual human beings. Not characters in an action movie.
No one… NO ONE… has the right to imply that anyone who fled this rampage was a coward. I’ve known people who have been in real life-threatening situations, like cops and soliders, and NONE of them would EVER speak like that.
To everyone else: I’m sorry for any disruption this may cause but I am LIVID at the lack of decency some people are demonstrating. People DIED in this massacre and other people’s hearts are bleeding with grief. I find it UNBELIEVABLE that there are people out there who would DARE piss on the memories of these victims.”
But that would require tact, good taste and common sense as well as a realization that there are differences between peoples reactions when on their own VS in a group and that no one knows what they’ll ultimately do with rounds actively being sent downrange at them.
Bill Myers: “You know, as soon as I hit the submit button on my last two posts, I realized what a mistake I’d made.
No mistake made. I’m hitting the same point that you are. My fuse just burns differently then yours so it doesn’t look like I’m at that point. Yet.
Den: “They. Weren’t. There.”
Bingo!!!!! Man gets the award for hitting the bullseye.
First thing they teach in martial arts classes…learn how to run.
The other thing they teach is, no matter how good a figher you are, you’re still not bulletproof.
I happen to be a 2nd degree blackbelt and I’m a fairly big guy. Looking at pictures of Cho, I feel confident in saying that despite the fact that I’m 14 years older than him, I could have taken him in a fair fight.
But a lunatic with automatic pistols is not a fair fight. I’d like to say I’d know exactly what I’d do in that situation, but no one really does until they’ve been there. What I believe I would do, however, is do everything I could to help other people get the hëll out of there. Going all Batman on a murderous psychopath may make a nice fantasy, but in the real world, an untrained person trying to do that usually ends up getting himself or others killed. The police are trained to subdue such an attacker. The best thing for civilians to do is to get the hëll out of their way.
The police are trained to subdue such an attacker. The best thing for civilians to do is to get the hëll out of their way.
One thing I’m going to point out is that, generally, police are trained AND they have all the tactical odds on their side (i.e., firepower, armor, control of the grounds, etc.). And sometimes, bad things STILL happen.
Under less controlled conditions, when all the factors aren’t in your favor, what are the likely outcomes? Wish people would think of that…
I wonder if Nivek is getting the aftereffect of Robert Preston’s posts? Certainly, we all appreciate acts of courage and sacrifice, although we don’t expect everybody to be heroic. It’s the arrogant attitude that views the victims and the survivors of the massacre as if they were cowards or badly educated, which draws condemnation. especially when it comes from someone whose first post on this blog was calling everybody on it cowards.
Richard Pryor:
A lot of people get an ášš whupping when you could run! You’ll be in the hospital, your ego will heal a lot faster than a broken jaw. ‘Cause you’ll still be in the hospital going “Shìŧ, I should’ve run.”
Run! That’s right. Somebody pull a knife on you, and you can’t pull out nothing but a hand with some skin on it, your intelligence ought to tell you to RUN! But people be watching Kojak and šhìŧ too much, they think they have to be Macho Man! I’ll take that knife and shut it up your ášš!
I’m Macho Man!
You go from Macho Man to dead person.
‘Cause see in the movies always make looking get stabbed with a knife look like it’s cool, right? ‘Cause it has that music “Nana, Nananana.” See in real life, you don’t hear no “Nanana”. All you feel, is a knife in your ášš. You’ll be done by “Nanana”.
So, run! And teach your old lady how to run so you don’t have to go back after her ášš! You say “I’ll meet you at home in 5 minutes baby!” Then you’ve got something to laugh about when you get home, right? Say “Baby, šhìŧ, I beat you here about 2 minutes, what the fûçk happened?”
Den: And, as I said before, I have no idea why it’s important to know how many of the students fought back before they were shot. This was not a video game or a Rambo movies. It was not an opportunity for people who were not there to live out some kind of macho fantasy. It was real people who were facing an ambush from an armed assailant.
Nivek: My god… If someone has to explain WHY you fight back in a situation like this, then just take yourself out of this discussion.
Luigi Novi: That’s funny, the question to which you responded clearly wasn’t about the issue of why one fights back. It was about how many of them did. Reading comprehension not your strong suit?
Anyone who engages in as brazen as a Straw Man argument like that, and for the purpose of so callously insulting another person on this blog over a tragedy like this, is far more guilty of “taking themselves out of the discussion” than the one who asked the original question.
But then again, a cruel-hearted troll who gets his rocks off by insulting the victims of this rampage by accusing them of “needing someone to fight for them”—and who hides behind the anonymity afforded to him by the Internet while doing so—probably doesn’t care about the proper etiquette concerning “discussion”.
I wonder, Nivek: If you met a loved one of one of the victims, would you repeat that assertion about them needing someone to fight for them to their face? And would you do so while giving your real name?
Or would you flee?
Well, I guess some people are sincere enough in their own position, and polite enough in the way they express it that they would stand their ground.
Someone others, however, exhibit “flight” tendencies by “hiding” behind anonymity and insults.
Nivek: Well Jerry, unfortunately for your pitch, I HAVE BEEN DIRECTLY THREATENED WITH A GUN BEFORE. I simply reacted physically by punching the mugger in the throat because he was so close and drove the person away from me and my friend.
Luigi Novi: And many, if not all of those at VT, may not have been close enough to do this, or been of the mind to react as you did.
The self-aggrandizement and narcissism required to not comprehend this, and to make value judgments about them based on how they reacted are nauseating.
What do the collective you think about the NASA situation? I mean, could that be a sort of copycat situation, or is it’s proximity to the VT killings just an unfortunate coincidence? I have to admit, though, that my first thought when I heard about it was “Aren’t NASA people supposed to be a little more stable?” You’ve got the love triangle woman from last time, now this.
My take on NASA is that it’s too soon to say.
I wasn’t pìššìņg on the memories of the victims, I am simply tired of hearing people acting like anyone who has a aggressive response to trauma are uncultured apes just because they don’t think the same way you do. Some of us, without knowing details, simply think “but it was just one guy…” and how he was able to slaughter so many people apparently unabated.
I’m sorry that some of you are so quick to find bad guys in all this. But I was not saying ANYTHING about the victims themselves. I was commenting about people who are treating “What if another gun was in a potential victims hand?” like they are over aggressive apes. It’s an honest question, that has a hard to swallow simple answer. I’m sorry if you dont approve.
You’re so full of šhìŧ. The original statement to which you responded was this:
And, as I said before, I have no idea why it’s important to know how many of the students fought back before they were shot. This was not a video game or a Rambo movies. It was not an opportunity for people who were not there to live out some kind of macho fantasy. It was real people who were facing an ambush from an armed assailant.
As soon as you can show us what in that statement even comes close to touching upon “treating people with aggressive responsese as uncultured apes”
Nivek: But I was not saying ANYTHING about the victims themselves.
Luigi Novi: This is what you said:
It is Fight or Flight Instinct. Your obviously a Flight person, which isn’t all that bad, you apparently are just the type of person that needs someone to fight for them.
Some of the victims in the rampage undoubtedly tried to flee, or otherwise did not “fight back”. Thus, you were talking about them.
Nivke: I was commenting about people who are treating “What if another gun was in a potential victims hand?” like they are over aggressive apes…
Luigi Novi: No, you were not. You were responding to the statement by Den that you yourself quoted in your post, which I have reproduced here. Pretending that you were responding to something else is only going to come off as back pedaling, particularly to those who have the ability to scroll and see what you actually said, and who and what you were actually saying it to. It is that sort of dishonesty that I do not approve of. Not questions about relaxed gun laws.
Posted by: NIVEK at April 21, 2007 01:57 AM
I wasn’t pìššìņg on the memories of the victims, I am simply tired of hearing people acting like anyone who has a aggressive response to trauma are uncultured apes just because they don’t think the same way you do. Some of us, without knowing details, simply think “but it was just one guy…” and how he was able to slaughter so many people apparently unabated.
Wow, that’s a pretty neat trick: to claim you’re not pìššìņg on the memories of innocent victims and then to piss on said memories yet again… all in one breath.
To even ask the question of how “just one guy” could “slaughter so many people” implies that the victims should have done more. Never mind the fact that one of the victims was a professor who died using himself as a human shield, standing in the doorway of his classroom taking bullets so his students could jump out of a window. Never mind the fact that Jerry Chandler, a police officer, has thoroughly explained why it’s a horrible idea for civilians to play the hero in such situations. No, all that matters is that you, “Nivek,” fancy yourself an action hero and want to use this awful tragedy as an excuse to make sure all of us know it.
“Some of us, without knowing details, simply think…”
Jesus Christ, what a stupid statement. It would be more accurate to say that people like you, without knowing details, DON’T think. You just open your mouth, dig a hole, and then when you’re called on it keep digging deeper.
It’s time to SHUT YOUR MOUTH and walk away from this. It’s time to stop digging a hole and throwing mud on the memories of 32 departed souls who were INNOCENT VICTIMS of an unimaginable hailstorm of violence.
If you can’t understand how you’re being disrepectful, you have some soul-searching to do. Well, then, go to it… and leave the memories of these innocent victims, and those who are coming to grips with their loss, in peace.
Can you do at least that? Can you show at least one small shred of decency?
Posted by: NIVEK at April 21, 2007 01:57 AM:
“I wasn’t pìššìņg on the memories of the victims, I am simply tired of hearing people acting like anyone who has a aggressive response to trauma are uncultured apes.”
I think that nobody is saying that people who have aggressive response to trauma are uncultured apes. What they/we are saying is, that people who feel that the victims of this massacre are somehow deficient because they did not have an aggressive response, are uncultured apes.
“Some of us, without knowing details, simply think “but it was just one guy…” and how he was able to slaughter so many people apparently unabated.”
Finding the details might help answer that question. I don’t find the question itself problematic as much as the assumptions and presumptions that seem to hide behind it, as well as not willing to wait for the details.
“I was commenting about people who are treating “What if another gun was in a potential victims hand?” like they are over aggressive apes. It’s an honest question, that has a hard to swallow simple answer.”
The answer is anything but simple. Which was the point Jerry Chandler and other were making.
Bill Myers:
“Never mind the fact that one of the victims was a professor who died using himself as a human shield, standing in the doorway of his classroom taking bullets so his students could jump out of a window.”
Exactly. Here we have a situation where a person found in himself something that resulted in heroic action. We admire it, but who knows if any one of us would find it in itself when the time came. We certainly do not go around condemning others for not doing the same thing.
Regarding the “fight or flight” debate, I agree with the others who’ve said that you need to be in that kind of situation before you know for sure. (Incidentally, there were similar sentiments expressed by Bruce Banner in PAD’s “Hulk” movie novelisation.)
About 10 years ago, a prostitute tried to mug me; I wound up with my back against a wall, while she pushed a pair of scissors against my stomach and said “Give me your money or I’ll stab you”. I said no. I’d like to think that if a male attacker had done the same thing then I would have thumped him; I might not have won the fight, but I’d at least have made the attempt. However, I have a mental block about hitting women, so I tried to talk her out of it; when that didn’t work, I pushed her away and ran for it, so I got a small cut on my hand (when I’d cupped it over the point of the scissors), but I avoided serious injury. (More details in my blog at http://johnckirk.livejournal.com/4651.html)
However, that was a close range situation, without a projectile weapon. A few years after that, I played paintball with some friends at a stag weekend. One interesting point about this was that I realised what a bad aim I have; when I tried shooting from the hip, I couldn’t hit any of the tin cans on the wall nearby, let alone a moving target. So, in a real confrontation, I’d have no chance of aiming to hit someone in the leg/arm – I’d just have to aim for the middle of their body and hope for the best (and probably still miss). The rest of my friends were pretty bad shots too, which meant that we had to be fairly close to each other to actually hit each other with the balls, and this in turn meant that the impacts hurt quite a lot. The guy in charge said that when he played it, he’d barely even notice when he got hit, because it would be a gentle splat from long distance, but we were all covered in bruises by the end of the day.
So, when we were actually playing one of the sessions, I wound up hiding behind a tree while people on the other team were shooting at me, and I could hear all the paint balls splattering against the other side of the tree. Frankly, it was scary. The objective of the game was for me to shoot them (in order to win), but I didn’t want to move out into plain view, because I was pretty sure that I’d get hurt. This was when I had a “weapon” myself, so the idea of charging at them unarmed in order to wrestle their paintgun off them would just be ridiculous – I’d never get anywhere near them. If there were real bullets flying around, I don’t think that I’d be any more enthusiastic about putting myself in harm’s way.
I did judo classes at school, and our instructor gave us three tips for dealing with guns, depending on the situation:
a) If the attacker puts the gun right at your head (with the barrel pushing against your skin), there are some moves you can do to disarm him, although they aren’t guaranteed to work. (The basic idea is to turn your head quickly so that the gun is now pointing away from you, and grab his arm before he can re-aim it.)
b) If you’re a reasonable distance away (say 20 feet or so), make a run for it, because he’ll hopefully miss if he shoots at you.
c) If you’re standing near him, but not in direct contact with the gun, do whatever he tells you to do, otherwise you’ll die. (Mind you, this doesn’t allow for the situation where he intends to kill you anyway.)
As for the Virginia events, I wasn’t there, so I’m not going to criticise anyone who had to deal with that guy shooting at them.