Live blogging the final debate

Posted By: Peter DavidPosted On:

Yes, I’ll be there…well,here…to comment on the final debate in real time. Hope to see you here.

PAD

Kath here. I am filling in until Peter gets home. He had a previous obligation which he is getting back from

I didn’t realize there’s no cut line. So don’t panic, but most of this is about to vanish. I’m putting it behind a cut.


We are watching ABC which is the station we have been watching each debate

9:02 A vow of silence? How did they do that?
9:03 50th anniversary to the Cuban Missile Crisis
9:04 Libya Romney goes first
9:05 Brought up the Iran nuke question. That could be a land-mine.
9:06 Obama bringing us up to speed on what he has done.
9:07: Hi. Peter here. Thanks to Kathleen for filling in while I was running late coming back from speaking at a synagogue.
9:09: So has Fox called it for Romney yet?
9:09: Can someone tell me exactly when it became part of a uniform that someone could neither be president or run for president unless they have a flag pin on their lapel.
9:10: “Every time you’ve offered an opinion, you’ve been wrong.” Thank you for pointing that out.
9:12: Obama is not missing an opportunity to point out that Romney has been inconsistent and wrongheaded.
9:12: “Attacking me is not an agenda.” Right, NOW he wants to play nice.
9:13: “Russia is our greatest geo-political threat.” Really? Anyone want to try and fact check that?
9:14: “Here’s one thing I’ve learned about commander-in-chief: you have to not be a mealy-mouthed schmuck.”
9:15: “Protect minorities and women.” Hammering away at the women vote.
9:17: He said “folks.” Take a shot.
9:18: I can tell you right now, if Romney stops short of speaking in tongues and having his head spin around, people are going to claim he won or it’s a tie and the polls will not swing to Obama.
9:19: Oh, but wait–Romney is attacking Obama. I thought that wasn’t an agenda.
9:21: Obama wisely and calmly keeps hammering away at his successes. It works great because if Romney opposed something that worked out, he looks like a schmuck; if he went along with it, Obama offers kudos for agreeing with him.
9:23: Obama keeps hitting women (so to speak). Considering his (inexplicably) dropping numbers with women, it makes sense. He also seems to be concentrating on trying to paint a vision of the future for foreign affairs. Now he needs to show how that’s going to benefit things here.
9:25: Which he just did, or just tried to, at any rate.
9:26: Romney loses nothing by saying, “I felt as the President did.” What the undecideds are really trying to determine is whether they can see Romney as president.
9:27: See, now Romney is trying to bring it home, so to speak. Talking about how this relates to what’s going on here.
9:28: People vote for peace; they don’t vote for war. No, they vote because they’re afraid OF war, which is how Bush got a second term. If they did vote for peace, Obama should win in a slam dunk: no successful attacks on our homeland, and bin Laden dead.
9:32: Okay, now Obama has just completely wandered away from the subject. He tried to bring it back around and came kind of close. Of course, Romney could point out that he did just that; instead he’s responding to it.
9:34: From Caroline: “Wait, he wants to pay LESS for schools? Screw him.”
9:35: Hah! Obama’s wrong! Small businesses in MA were at 48? Nonsense. It was 47. He also said “folks.” Take another shot.
9:36: From Kathleen: “What we’ve fallen behind on because of current educational policies is creativity. Children thinking out of the box have that kind of thinking beaten out of them.”
9:39: Romney while governor cut per capita spending for education and vetoed retroactive payment for teachers.
9:42: The navy is smaller because of greater efficiency of the ships, you idiot. We don’t need five destroyers to do what one aircraft carrier can do.
9:43: BINGO! Called that one, kiddies. “This is not a game of Battleship.” That’s a keeper.
9:44: “We visited the website quite a bit. It still didn’t work.”
9:45: Whoa, this is a powder keg.
9:48: But neither of them are using the exact words: “An attack on Israel is an attack on the US.” That’s very different from saying “We stand with Israel.” Standing simply means you take their side. Saying “it’s an attack on the US” means that if someone attacks Israel, America will declare war on you and blow you to hëll.
9:49: When America was attacked, war was not a last resort. It was the first and only acceptable response. And if we said attacking Israel is tantamount to attacking us, then war is likewise the first and only acceptable response. Which neither of them will say.
9:51: Has Romney physically attacked Obama yet? No? Then people will still say it’s a tie.
9:51: Someone tell me: is a smirk a requirement for a Republican candidate?
9:52: “Apology tour.” Bull and may I add šhìŧ. A common Fox News trope. I get excited because Obama points out a fact I just pointed out. Fox must be creaming itself that Romney quoted them.
9:55: I wonder how people would react if Obama flat out said, “Governor Romney is full of šhìŧ.”
9:57: Honestly, I don’t have to go to a museum to remember the nature of evil. I’m pretty sure I’m familiar with it.
9:58: Obama didn’t respond on a point by point basis about the so called apology tour. Might have helped. It remains unrefuted.
9:59: Let’s not go into hypotheticals? Are you INSANE?
9:59: Okay, was “tumult” Romney’s vocabulary word of the day? It’s the fourth time he’s said it this debate. Meanwhile I still can’t believe he won’t respond to a hypothetical. Being president is ENTIRELY about being ready for things that no one anticipated. Romney’s control obsession is so misguided that he thinks nothing would happen that he didn’t control.
10:00: 20,000 folks. Another shot.
10:02: I honestly am okay with Obama always mentioning killing bin Laden. It was an accomplishment for which he is right to take props. What I’m tired of is the incessant anecdotes from both of them about ordinary people’s stories and problems.
10:04: “You can’t just let the President lay out all these programs, Bob.” He’s the moderator; I’m pretty sure he can.
10:06: Isn’t Romney basically saying all the stuff that Obama is saying?
10:12: I always love self-interviews. “Have they?” “No!” But at least he got “tumult” in again.
10:13: Okay, Mr. President, we get it: you’re fighting on behalf of women’s rights. The point’s been made. At this point women are going to start getting annoyed with such naked endeavors to gain their favor. Either they’re going to care about the issue of reproductive rights or they won’t.
10:14: So basically China is a frienemy. Now: how long until he accuses Romney of being soft on China.
10:16: Two minutes.
10:17: The greatest threat the world faces? Obviously: Bears.
10:18: We have to be polite to China? Doesn’t that run counter to things he’s said?
10:18: I wonder how many people are even watching this. They’re up against Bears vs. Lions and the Giants vs. the Cards.
10:19: Gotta play by the rules? Didn’t Obama just say that?
10:19: Secret Trade War. The name of the remarkably dull sequel to Marvel’s Secret War.
10:21: Obama knows with only minutes left, he has to hammer away at Romney in hopes he’ll break down or explode or something, since that’s the only way people will say Obama won. Win/lose slants toward Romney since all he has to do is not screw up. It doesn’t matter how many valid points Obama makes.
10:23: “Attacking me.” Ohhhhh, poor baby. It has less to do with reality and more with setting up Fox News to say, “And wasn’t it terrible that Obama kept attacking him and all he cared about was what’s good for the US.”
10:24: “I would never liquidate”–oh my GOD. He made his FORTUNE out of liquidating industries and costing jobs.
10:25: “I’m still speaking.” “Yes, but you’re full of crap.”
10:26: “Having a Romney presidency is not a smart choice. That will not help us be more competitive with China.”
10:28: Now HE’S doing folksy stuff.
10:29: Last chance to take a shot for “folks.”
10:30: The problem is that people don’t care what Obama wants. They only care about whether they can stand looking at Romney for the next four years.
10:31: Obama’s major problem is that people mistook him for Bagger Vance, or any other–as Spike Lee would say–“magic Negro.” They thought he would come into office and have all the answers. When that turned out not to be the case–when he proved to be human and fallible and unable to work with a negative congress–he disappointed the movie-going people who discovered he was not, in fact, a magic Negro, but a normal guy. So now they figure, well, we tried that and it didn’t work because he wasn’t magic. How disappointing; let’s try something else.

I think, once again, Obama won. He illustrated the many flip flops of Romney. The problem is that the people who are voting for Romney don’t care. They don’t care about his lies because their attitude is that all politicians. Honestly, a politician lying doesn’t bother me as much as a politician lying badly, which Romney repeatedly does. So basically what we have is Obama winning on points and facts in the face of an electorate that seems to care less about points and facts than they do about, “Who can I stand looking at him for the next four years? The Unmagic Negro who disappointed me or the robotic white guy who lies like everyone else. Tough call for many.

125 comments on “Live blogging the final debate”

  1. It’s a tough call between watching the debate… and the season premiere of RuPaul’s Drag Race: All-Stars… but I’m sure the drag race will still be ok DVR’d.. although… the debate would be infinitely more interesting if there was a “lip-sync for your life” portion.

    1. The ironic thing is that in Chicago (the city where Pres. Obama’s campaign HQ is located) most people won’t be watching the debate tonight ..most all the Chicago area tv’s will be tuned in to the BEARS game.

      1. Lewis, that will likely be the case throughout the country. NFL is King.

        The debate might get higher ratings than the NLCS Game 7, though.

      2. @ CJR: Too true. I’m from near the Chicago area originally and everyone I talked to back in Chi-town were all talking about the Bears game and not the debate ..some mentioned watching the MLB playoffs, but that’s only because they were rooting against the Cardinals (of course they’re Cubs fans so that’s why). :o)

        –totally unrelated note—
        ..since we’re talking about the Bears, it turns out that All-Pro linebacker for the Bears LANCE BRIGGS has his own comic book website:

        http://www.lancescomicworld.com/

        Chances are he could be a PAD fan as well!

      3. I know I cetainly was glued to the Bears-Lions game on Monday Night Football! And I’ll bet the first thing Obama said to his chief of staff as he got off the stage was, “What’s the score?”

    1. No, no, the Giants played yesterday. Tonight is the Lions vs. da Bears. I don’t like to watch prerecorded sports, so I’ll probably watch the debate and just check my fantasy team periodically.

      Wait, there are Giants in baseball too? When did that happen?

  3. It looks like that super bright red carpet is back for tonight’s debate! Is it me or are they using the same carpet for each debate??

    Maybe that’s what they’re really competing for ..winner gets red rug!

  4. May have to see this one on line, later. My HDTV lamp went out, and it looks like tomorrow to get a replacement. Since the DVR is on that TV, and I am not sure that I programmed the DVR to record this debate, I don’t know if I will be able to see it anytime soon…

    1. Honestly, I think liveblogging a third party presidential debate to determine who won would be like liveblogging a 3 Stooges marathon to determine who was the best Stooge after Moe and Larry.

      PAD

  7. I don’t know about you but when I think “Comprehensive and Robust strategy” Mitt Romney is the first name that comes to mind (looks for sarcasm button)

  8. “9:09: Can someone tell me exactly when it became part of a uniform that someone could neither be president or run for president unless they have a flag pin on their lapel.”

    The 2008 Primary race when a candidate didn’t wear one and it led the new cycle.

  9. 9:09: Can someone tell me exactly when it became part of a uniform that someone could neither be president or run for president unless they have a flag pin on their lapel.

    September 12, 2001. It became part of the politician’s uniform. Cuz putting on a dollar store tchotchke says, “I’m a TRUE American.”

    –Daryl

  10. Fact checked:

    On CNN this afternoon, Mitt Romney pounced on Obama’s statement. “This is a president who is telling us one thing and doing something else and is planning on doing something even more frightening,” the former Massachusetts governor said, calling the comments “very, very troubling” because Russia “is without question our number one geopolitical foe.”

    Host Wolf Blitzer followed up:
    BLITZER: You think Russia is a bigger foe right now than say Iran or China or North Korea? Is that what you’re suggesting governor?
    ROMNEY: Well I’m saying in terms of a geopolitical opponent, the nation that lines up with the world’s worst actors. Of course the greatest threat the world faces is a nuclear armed Iran and a nuclear North Korea is troubling enough. But when these terrible actors pursue their course in the world and we go to the UN looking for ways to stop them … and who is it that always stands up for the world’s worst actors, it is always Russia, typically with China alongside.
    So in terms of a geopolitical foe a nation that is on the Security Council that has the heft of the Security Council and is of course a massive nuclear power, Russia is the geopolitical foe and the idea that our president is planning on doing something with them that he’s not willing to tell the American people before the election is something I find very, very alarming.

  11. 9:19: Oh, but wait–Romney is attacking Obama. I thought that wasn’t an agenda.

    It’s a new record. In two days, he had two or three different stances on abortion. Now, in 22 minutes, he’s had two different stances on “attacking” being part of the debate’s agenda.

    –Daryl

  12. Syria is irans link to the sea? They do not even share a border… And Iran has its own coast line… Jeez look at a map Mitt…

  13. Bill Maher:
    “Mitt’s entire debate strategy: What he just said, but from a white guy.”

    –Daryl

  14. Did anyone else just expect the president(at around 9:30) when he was speaking of Bush and Cheney to have some sort of “crack shot” line? No? Just me? My, those crickets are loud.

  15. Fewest naval ships since 1917-

    If you ignore, 2005(282), 2006(281), 2007(278) and 2008(282).

    2011 – 285
    2012 data not available

    *Naval History & Heritage Command

    1. It was a week ago or so that William Gibson tweeted a quote from a friend of his, to the effect that of course we have fewer ships in our navy now – because we have quite a few of them that are capable of bringing an end to human civilization independently.

  16. 9:59: Let’s not go into hypotheticals? Are you INSANE?

    No, but a stakeout question like that is pretty nuts. I’m glad Romney rejected the premise.

  17. Romney brings up the bûllšhìŧ, bogus “apology tour” like he believes it. Oh, wait, it’s Romney. Of course he believes lies when he tells them. It’s what he does.

    Nice call on the number of ships. The average Navy war vessel today would wipe out a small fleet from 50 years ago. Effectiveness trumps numbers. Same with aircraft. If you have a modern American military aircraft, that’s worth about five or ten aircraft in any number of these “number one” foes we have.

    1. It wasn’t an apology tour, but if it had been, well, after 8 years of Bush and Cheney, one was warranted.

    2. If you have a modern American military aircraft, that’s worth about five or ten aircraft in any number of these “number one” foes we have.

      That would be true, except:
      (1) The F-22 is beset by problems.
      (2) The F-35 is behind schedule and over budget to the point that the DoD is making hollow threats to them (hollow because we have no alternatives).
      (3) The Russians and Chinese are both testing their fifth-generation fighters. (The Russians are codeveloping theirs with India.)

      You’re right that individual ships and fighters are vastly more capable than they were even midway through the Cold War. The problem is, the bad guys’ toys are shinier too. And Romney’s right that the Navy has been saying for years that they need 313 ships to do their jobs. Obama is right that the Secretary of the Navy (whom he appointed) has been retooling that target lately.

      1. And our shiny toys are still ahead of the curve over their shiny toys.

        Aim smarter, not for mass production.

  19. 10:17: The greatest threat the world faces? Obviously: Bears.

    As a Vikings fan, I absolutely agree with this.

  20. Wait, this is the same guy who called the Chinese “cheaters” saying that we can’t be against them?

    And now, after starting out talking about how we have to be partners, he says he’s going after them for doing bad things.

    He’s going schizophrenic. Obama can’t use sanctions because they need to be partners and friends so we can’t be mean but Romney will attack the cheaters and give them what for.

    WTF?

  21. In these last few minutes, Obama looks about 10 years younger than he did at the top of the debate.

    –Daryl

  22. 10:21: Obama knows with only minutes left, he has to hammer away at Romney in hopes he’ll break down or explode or something, since that’s the only way people will say Obama won. Win/lose slants toward Romney since all he has to do is not screw up. It doesn’t matter how many valid points Obama makes.

    It doesn’t help that the President blew it on Romney’s “let Detroit go bankrupt” op-ed. Romney’s right. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/19/opinion/19romney.html?_r=0 Relevant highlights that the President misrepresented and about which Romney correctly quoted himself, particularly with the Government helping with the managed bankruptcy (emphases added):

    “Without that bailout, Detroit will need to drastically restructure itself. With it, the automakers will stay the course — the suicidal course of declining market shares, insurmountable labor and retiree burdens, technology atrophy, product inferiority and never-ending job losses. Detroit needs a turnaround, not a check.”

    “It is not wrong to ask for government help, but the automakers should come up with a win-win proposition. I believe the federal government should invest substantially more in basic research — on new energy sources, fuel-economy technology, materials science and the like — that will ultimately benefit the automotive industry, along with many others.”

    “The American auto industry is vital to our national interest as an employer and as a hub for manufacturing. A managed bankruptcy may be the only path to the fundamental restructuring the industry needs. It would permit the companies to shed excess labor, pension and real estate costs. The federal government should provide guarantees for post-bankruptcy financing and assure car buyers that their warranties are not at risk.

    “In a managed bankruptcy, the federal government would propel newly competitive and viable automakers, rather than seal their fate with a bailout check. “

    1. He clearly states that the government should help with basic research and POST bankruptcy finance. Not with the nonexistent financing that was in the public sector at the time. Detroit would not have survived the bankruptcy. Obama was right, Mitt was lying.

      1. Yes, because an industry cannot possibly survive bankruptcy proceedings, especially with federal government support for its customers.

        Except, um, Obama said that Romney wanted the industry to be restructured without governmental assistance, not that his version of the assistance worked better. Which was blatantly false. It may also be false that Romney’s version would have failed, but we frankly don’t know how that counterfactual would have played out if it had been tried. What we do know is that Obama’s recollection of Romney’s op-ed was about as inaccurate as Romney’s recollection of Obama’s remarks on Benghazi.

      2. Read it again. POST BANKRUPTCY , means AFTER they come out of bankruptcy. It means they do not get government assistance in bankruptcy. And it was very clear at the time he did not think the Government should help them. He expect the private sector, which was in freefall and not lending to anyone, to step in.
        You can try to rewrite history all you want. But his statement is clear and he was wrong.

      3. Bottom line, Ed: Obama robbed the bond holders to give freebies to the auto workers and probably broke the law in the process, so any way you spin it is irrelevant. There are millions of people both in Florida and Michigan who know what happened, which is why Michigan probably will go for the President and Florida for Romney. Since there were more bond holders than there were auto workers, we have more votes.

        This is the inevitable result when one employs politics, rather than economics, to determine who gets the haircut.

      4. In this case, you’re wrong, David, and Obama is right.

        PRESIDENT OBAMA: You’ve held the floor for a while. The — look, I think anybody out there can check the record. Governor Romney, you keep on trying to, you know, airbrush history here.

        You were very clear that you would not provide government assistance to the U.S. auto companies even if they went through bankruptcy. You said that they could get it in the private marketplace. That wasn’t true. They would have gone through a —

        MR. ROMNEY: You’re wrong. You’re wrong, Mr. President.

        PRESIDENT OBAMA: I — no, I am not wrong.

        What Romney was talking about was federal guarantees. That’s not money that goes to the auto companies to help them out. It goes to anyone who is willing to invest private sector money in helping them as they come out of bankruptcy. The problem the U.S. auto industry was facing was that no one was willing to invest in restructuring.

        Romney saying that what was done was what he advised is complete and total bûllšhìŧ. Romney saying that he was saying that they could get the help in the private marketplace rather than the government is total bûllšhìŧ.

        It’s as simple as this. You have a business. Your business is in financial jeopardy. You need $1 million to right that ship by the end of this fiscal year. Because of the trouble times however, no banks will loan you the money and no one else wants to loan it to you or invest it in your business.

        And then along comes edhopper with $1 million to give you to restructure and get your business up and running again for next year. That’s what Obama did.

        Now…

        You have a business. Your business is in financial jeopardy. You need $1 million to right that ship by the end of this fiscal year. Because of the trouble times however, no banks will loan you the money and no one else wants to loan it to you or invest it in your business.

        I come along and say that giving you $1 million is a waste of money. Giving you $1 million will just let you keep going the way you’re going and you’ll be right here where you are again in one or two years. What you need is private sector investors and money to help you after you go through bankruptcy unaided. But you’re not getting any help until you’re ready to come out of bankruptcy.

        And I have money, but I’m not going to help you. What I will do is put, say, $500,000 up as a guarantee for others to help you. I’ll guarantee anyone who loans you money that I’ll cover some of their losses if you flop after going through bankruptcy and I’ll take over product warranties for anyone who buys your goods along with a warranty through you.

        But, again, there’s no one who wants to help you. No banks are loaning you money because of the troubled times and no one wants to risk losing money to help you out because times are tight for them as well. And what good is it to you if I say that I’m setting aside a part of that money not to aid those who would loan you needed funds but rather so that I can cover warranties and product loans if anyone bothers to buy stuff from you? So you go through bankruptcy, you lay off half of your employees and you reduce the overall worth of your business by selling off some aspects of it and now you’re sitting there struggling with no help and no one willing to help you.

        Well, one of two things is going to happen to you. (1) You’re either going to struggle like mad for a year with an unclear future or go under after all completely by your own devices or (2) you’re going to get bought by Bain Capital, raided, stripped, harvested and “turned around” in the same way KB Toys was.

        Basically, I’ve said that, sure, I’m willing to lend financial aid, but just not to you and not in a way that will help. I’ve offered to help, but not in a way that will actually help since it’s not what you need and I’m only willing to help by assisting anyone who is willing to help you because, as addressed above, no one in the private sector is willing or able to help you.

        Gee, big of me. I’m saying I’ll help while knowing that what I’m offering pretty much guarantees that I won’t spend a dime on helping you. That’s what Romney advocated.

        So, again, when Romney says Obama did what Romney said we should have done and followed the path that Romney laid out, he’s full of šhìŧ. When Obama says that Romney said that the help would be found through the private sector rather than via government aid to the auto industry, he’s 100% correct.

      5. Let’s look at the full exchange, shall we? This is what was said before the section that Jerry quoted:

        ROMNEY: I just want to take one of those points, again, attacking me as not talking about an agenda for — for getting more trade and opening up more jobs in this country. But the president mentioned the auto industry and that somehow I would be in favor of jobs being elsewhere. Nothing could be further from the truth.

        I’m a son of Detroit. I was born in Detroit. My dad was head of a car company. I like American cars. And I would do nothing to hurt the U.S. auto industry. My plan to get the industry on its feet when it was in real trouble was not to start writing checks. It was President Bush that wrote the first checks. I disagree with that. I said they need — these companies need to go through a managed bankruptcy. And in that process, they can get government help and government guarantees, but they need to go through bankruptcy to get rid of excess cost and the debt burden that they’d — they’d built up.

        And fortunately…

        (CROSSTALK)
        OBAMA: Governor Romney, that’s not what you said…

        (CROSSTALK)

        OBAMA: Governor Romney, you did not…

        ROMNEY: You can take a look at the op-ed…

        (CROSSTALK)

        OBAMA: You did not say that you would provide government help.

        ROMNEY: I said that we would provide guarantees, and — and that was what was able to allow these companies to go through bankruptcy, to come out of bankruptcy. Under no circumstances would I do anything other than to help this industry get on its feet. And the idea that has been suggested that I would liquidate the industry, of course not. Of course not.

        (CROSSTALK)

        OBAMA: Let’s check the record.

        (CROSSTALK)

        ROMNEY: That’s the height of silliness…

        (CROSSTALK)

        OBAMA: Let — let — let’s…

        (CROSSTALK)

        ROMNEY: I have never said I would liquidate…

        (CROSSTALK)

        OBAM: …at the record.

        (CROSSTALK)

        ROMNEY: …I would liquidate the industry.

        (CROSSTALK)

        OBAMA: Governor, the people in Detroit don’t forget.

        (CROSSTALK) ROMNEY: …and — and that’s why I have the kind of commitment to ensure that our industries in this country can compete and be successful. We in this country can — can compete successfully with anyone in the world, and we’re going to. We’re going to have to have a president, however, that doesn’t think that somehow the government investing in — in car companies like Tesla and — and Fisker, making electric battery cars. This is not research, Mr President, these are the government investing in companies. Investing in Solyndra. This is a company, this isn’t basic research. I — I want to invest in research. Research is great. Providing funding to universities and think tanks is great. But investing in companies? Absolutely not.

        (CROSSTALK)

        OBAMA: Governor?

        ROMNEY: That’s the wrong way to go.

        (CROSSTALK)

        OBAMA: The fact of the matter is…

        (CROSSTALK)

        ROMNEY: I’m still speaking. So I want to make sure that we make — we make America more competitive.

        OBAMA: Yeah.

        ROMNEY: And that we do those things that make America the most attractive place in the world for entrepreneurs, innovators, businesses to grow. But you’re investing in companies doesn’t do that. In fact it makes it less likely for them to come here…

        OBAMA: Governor?

        ROMNEY: …because the private sector’s not going to invest in a…

        (CROSSTALK)

        OBAMA: I’m — I’m — I’m happy.

        (CROSSTALK)

        ROMNEY: …company…

        (CROSSTALK)

        OBAMA: …to respond to you…

        (CROSSTALK)

        ROMNEY: …if — if you’re…

        (CROSSTALK)

        OBAMA: …you’ve had the floor for a while.

        (CROSSTALK)

        ROMNEY: …get someone else’s.

      6. Yeah, let’s look.

        Oops. You’re wrong and Obama is right.

        You’re either filling in the blanks with what you want to see there or you don’t know enough about business to know what Romney appears to be talking about.

        I was generous to Romney above in my scenario and gave him credit that he might have offered money to cover actual loans to your business. But the facts are that Romney discussed guarantees in a way that made his plan look like federal guarantees to cover only after the fact costs for everyone but the auto industry directly. He was talking about guarantees to cover loans to buy cars and to cover warranties if the auto company went under anyhow.

        That’s it.

        Romney did not advocate anything like what actually happened and he’s desperately trying to backtrack and claim credit. Romney did not offer up a plan where the government would help the auto industry. Romney would have happily sat by and watched the American auto industry circle the drain and go under.

        Romney is a liar.

        You’re wrong.

        Obama was correct.

      7. The problem the U.S. auto industry was facing was that no one was willing to invest in restructuring.

        You have utterly no way of knowing that. Particularly since someone actually did. (Q.v. below.) The problem the auto industry really faced is that nobody besides the government was willing to invest in the auto industry without restructuring. The government loans essentially went down a rat hole, doing little but delay the inevitable Chapter 11 filings.

        Romney saying that what was done was what he advised is complete and total bûllšhìŧ.

        Now, there you’ve got me. Largely because it’s bûllšhìŧ to claim that’s what Romney said, when he said the exact opposite. (Though, as it happened, the Feds did in fact guarantee the warranties just like Romney advised.)

        So, again, when Romney says Obama did what Romney said we should have done and followed the path that Romney laid out, he’s full of šhìŧ. When Obama says that Romney said that the help would be found through the private sector rather than via government aid to the auto industry, he’s 100% correct.

        Romney would have been full of šhìŧ, had he said what you claimed, but he didn’t.

        You’re factually challenged on a couple of issues, though. One is that the auto companies (except for Ford, which was managed competently) did go through Chapter 11. Also, that nonexistent private help you’re so dismissive of existed in the form of Fiat, which is now the majority owner of Chrysler. Your theory that Chrysler would have gone under if its Chapter 11 reorganization had happened in 2008 (as Romney advised) instead of 2009 (as actually happened) is interesting, but I don’t know how you’d prove it. It’s also beside the point, which is that Romney correctly recalled what he actually said as opposed to the words Obama was putting in his mouth (or word processor, as the case may be).

      8. “Now, there you’ve got me. Largely because it’s bûllšhìŧ to claim that’s what Romney said, when he said the exact opposite.”

        Mitt Romney: ““ My own view, by the way, was that the auto companies needed to go through bankruptcy before government help. And frankly, that’s finally what the president did.“
        – May 2012

        And there’s more out there.

        Sorry, I know the Mitt supporter theory is that we only listen to, believe and remember what Mitt last said exclusively and ignore all the rest, but Mitt tried to claim credit for the auto bailout earlier this year and, in various interviews, claimed that what was done was exactly what he laid out with additional costs.

        Nope, sorry. I don’t suffer Romnesia. I know what Romney has been claiming and saying for the past ten months and I’m not handicapped by only remembering what he said just last night.

        Romney lied and Romney’s plan offered little in the way of direct help and, as Obama said last night, depended on private sector support that wasn’t there. The heads of every major US auto company, including Ford, testified that the auto bailout was necessary or the American auto industry was flushed down the toilet.

        http://www.factcheck.org/2011/09/ford-motor-co-does-u-turn-on-bailouts/

        Romney would have let Detroit go bankrupt; for good. And he would have likely pocketed some cash from all the business that Bain Capital would have been doing by running in and liquidating dealers, manufacturers and companies that went under with it. After all, that’s what Romney does.

    1. Weasel that I am, I have Forte on my fantasy team, so I’m not too upset by that result. (Hey, the Vikes have already won more games than I would have bet they’d win this year. I’m not greedy. Second place in the division looks pretty good after last year.)

  24. Debating Romney tonight had to be infuriating.

    He, yet again, did 180s on most of his position statements of the past ten months, he spent what seemed like half of his time agreeing with Obama on his policies and actions…

    How do you debate someone who claims that his flips and his flops are what he has always said and felt?

    1. Pretty much the way Obama did, by slapping Romney with reality so hard it spins him the rest of the way back around.

      It’s either that or “Governor, You’re a liar. A liar, liar pants on fire.”, but then Romney would just say putting out pants fires is part of his 5-point plan and go into his economy stump speech.

      1. And yet…. Obama lied and lied and lied and lied and lied and lied. He lied about things that he said and did. He lied about things that Romney said and did. He lied so much that even the White House was contradicting him minutes after the debate was over.

        Reasonable people can disagree about who won this debate. Once again, I thought Obama was strong at the beginning and Romney was very weak. By the end, Romney was in charge and Obama seemed to be on the verge of some kind of fit. Dems would do much better if they could negotiate 30 minute debates. They can’t seem to go longer than that. Maybe you like how Obama was by the end. However, his pettiness, snarkiness, and downright insulting behavior really made him look poor. I don’t think it will play well with undecided voters.

        So, regardless of who won, the fact remains is that the momentum has been with Romney since the first debate. Obama needed a game changer last night. He didn’t get it. Romney succeeded in appearing calm and in charge and who had a handle on the foreign policy facts. Obama had some strong moments as well. However, at his worst, he came off as an insulting little creep. I think Romney appeared better to independents and undecided voters. The polls that I’ve seen this morning seem to bear that out. Net effect – the race remains undisturbed. Romney still has the momentum and will probably get a bit of a bounce from this debate.

        And I think it’s over. Last night, Mitt Romney won the election. It’s too late for a significant game changer now. Without some catastrophic scenario for the Romney campaign, Obama is out of time. I think Barack and Michelle can continue shopping for that retirement estate in Hawaii.

      2. Best post-debate analysis came from (once again) Charles Krauthammer – Romney walked away with it. He looked presidential. Obama looked like someone running for city council.

      3. Romney lied when he said that our “Navy is smaller now than any time since 1917.” Actually, there are more ships active now than at the low point under President George W. Bush.

        Romney lied when he said that the president went on “an apology tour … criticizing America” after Obama became president.

        Romney lied when claimed credit for top scores by Massachusetts grade-schoolers while he was governor. They tested at the top, or near it, before Romney even took office.

        Romney said the federal debt to “other people” is $16 trillion, which isn’t correct. Mr. Numbers and business apparently can’t read the books well enough to know that the debt owed to the public is $11 trillion, and the figure he gave includes money the government owes to itself.

        Romney once again flipped and flopped (lied about) again on his own policy positions. And when he wasn’t just flip flopping he was spending time last night saying that Obama was right and that he agreed with Obama on policy. Hëll, if anyone was playing a drinking game and taking a shot when he flipped and flopped they would be dead right now.

        And the biggest lie of all – He still insists that his math works.

        Romney’s debate tactic last night was to lie, flip flop and declare that Obama was right in his actions and that he agreed with Obama while simultaneously stating that Obama was wrong and that he disagreed with Obama on the exact same issues.

        Hëll, he couldn’t even agree with himself last night. His complete statement on China was schizophrenic. He was all over the map in that five minutes. It was like the editorial cartoon where they had a stage full of six Romneys and told them that they would each be able to speak for two minutes and then have one minute to rebut each other. The man just has nothing other than lies, basing his positions on what he thinks people want to hear and checking to see which way the wind is blowing.

        Let’s just look at this fact –

        Romney was the Governor of Massachusetts. He’s getting slaughtered in the polling there.

        The people that know him best are voting against him by a wide margin. That should tell you something right there.

      4. “The people that know him best are voting against him by a wide margin. That should tell you something right there.”

        Faux News explanation:
        “The people of MA are voting for a different Governor to free Mitt to be President!”

      5. Jerry, I think you are wrong about one claim: nobody ‘knows him best.’ There’s nothing to know!

      6. And I think it’s over. Last night, Mitt Romney won the election.

        Like anybody needed to predict that this post was eventually coming…

        As we’ve seen all along: if Obama does it (lying, whatever) it’s bad, but if Romney does it, it deserves high praise.

        When Obama is re-elected, Tim’s going to have some ‘splaining to do.

      7. Tweets during the debate last night.

        “Best post-debate analysis came from (once again) Charles Krauthammer – Romney walked away with it.”

        Brent Bozell – “He’s sounding LIKE Obama. This is terrible.”

        Glenn Beck – “I am glad to know that mitt agrees with Obama so much. No, really. Why vote?”

        Underside of the bus, meet Mr. Romney. Mr. Romney, meet the underside of the bus.

        Dayammmmn.

        “He looked presidential.”

        I’m not certain what this “presidential” Mitt Romney conservative commentators saw last night was. I saw a nervous, ill-informed, twitchy guy who kept getting lost and kept changing the subject. He was noticeably grimacing by the end.

      9. Tim Butler – “Romney walked away with it.”

        Post-debate instant polls say…

        CBS’s poll of undecided voters – Obama 53%, Romney 23%

        CNN’s poll of debate watchers – Obama 48%, Romney 40%

        Public Policy’s poll of swing state voters – Obama 53%, Romney 42%

        Reuters poll – Obama 63%, Romney 33%.

        Oh, yeah… He just walked away with it.

        What was that discussion going on the other day about not admitting something even when it’s obvious?

      10. Romney only won in that parallel fact-free, reality free world that GOPers and Foxies operate. But the true best tweet of the night came from Albert Brooks, talking about how much Romney was sweating: “If Romney sweats anymore, I get a royalty.”

      11. I don’t know. I know the movie reference, but I think what we saw was more flop sweat than anything else.

      12. It was from the moving “Broadcast News,” Albert Brooks’ character was a newswriter who was thrown on the air and sweat as much as Patrick Ewing during a Knicks game.

      13. I know. Like I said, I know the movie reference.

        I just don’t think it was that. This looked a lot more like the flop sweat you see from a stage performer who knows five minutes into his one hour act that he’s lost the audience and the performance blows and knows that there’s no way out for him until the hour is up.

        That’s what Romney reminded me of at times last night. He knew he was lost and flailing and he couldn’t do anything about it but badly repeat his memorized foreign policy Cliffs Notes and hope to not screw up too terribly.

      14. My bad, Jerry, I misread that you didn’t know where it came from. I was wr–wr. I was wr-wr….dámņ it, now I’m a Republican!

  26. Being a comic book fan I am prone to exceptional irrational leaps of logic, which is actually needed to maintain suspension of disbelief while reading the dámņ things, but tonight I think I topped myself. I found myself peeved that Kath was blogging the debate which is extremely odd because Kath posting is always a treat. Then it hit me, Peter was bowling the night of the first debate which Obama got creamed and I somehow blame him for it. Now Peter getting irrationally blamed with using Swiss cheese logic is nothing new to online comic book fans, but blaming him for Obama losing is insane even by irate comic book fan standards.

    1. Lester, I assue you that considering some of the magic logic used by Fox and friends to spin things to Romney’s benefit, your blaming me for Obama’s loss is almost a paragon of good thinking.

      By the way, Kath says she wants to see a spin room that actually spins. How cool would that be?

      PAD

      1. What, watching a room full of middle aged to senior press guys who aren’t in great shape getting spun in circles until their dinner comes up?

        Maybe not so cool.

      2. “And that was why I was called antisemitic by a number of irate readers”

        “Really? Just because you named them after foods and herbs?”

  28. By the way, who else caught Mitt informing the world that Syria was Iran’s only ally in the Middle East and that Syria was Iran’s route to the sea?

    Uhm… Yeah…

    So does that mean that in Mitt’s world that Iran is a landlocked country, that both Iraq and Turkey are now part of Syria and/or that the overtures of friendship made by the W. Bush installed, shiny new democracy in Iraq don’t exist?

    1. This is of a piece of his repeated warnings about the Soviet Union, and his lament of our “betrayal” of Czechoslovakia (another country that hasn’t existed since the last century).

      Now, that’s separate from his piece about the number of boats we now have (which has actually risen over the past several years), but neither piece looks very good for Romney.

  29. I think we saw a reverse of what happened in the first debate. Then Obama had the momentum and was rising in the polls while Mitt was trailing and fading fast. Obama played it safe and Mitt tore him apart. Unlike the first debate there are a lot fewer undecided voters so I don’t know if we will see a momentum shift but I hope so.

  30. Is it me or did President Obama’s facial expressions at times look like he was channeling his inner Abe Vigoda?

  32. Don’t worry, Darin, we’ll be saving all of those for you to use in about two weeks.

    1. At this point, there’s practically no way the Romney can lose this election. Unless he can pull off some massive voter fraud, Obama’s toast. Doubtless there will become of this shenanigans, but not enough to help him, I’d bet.

      We’re less than wo weeks away from President-Elect Romney.

      1. Yeah, there’d have to be some incredibly dumb comment from a Republican. Like, I dunno, a Republican Senate candidate saying that a woman who is raped and becomes pregnant shouldn’t be able to have an abortion because the pregnancy is “God’s will” — and then issue an “apology” that just attacks Washington without changing his position on what he said.

        This election will be amazingly close, and anyone (on either side) who thinks it’s a slam-dunk for their candidate is either trying to make their candidate’s victory look inevitable (to discourage the other side from voting) or has drunk way too much of the Kood-Aid (and is preparing a “they cheated!” response if/when their side loses).

      2. James, the only way you could hold that view is if you deny every scrap of data out there. The only polls out there that have Obama close to Romney are so weighted for the Democrats they can’t be taken seriously. But, I’m so confident that I’m not even interested in debating it. Obama’s imploding. Did you see the day he had today?For the next 48 hours, his utter lies and deception on Libya (and his actions that are directly responsible for the deaths of 4 Americans) will be front and center in the media. He’s bleeding support. Rodney’s cleaning up the Independent vote. The left wing partisans that will support him no matter what aren’t near enough to give him the win.

        If you disagree, fine. Enjoy your reasonless confidence. You’re less than two weeks away from a very disappointing night. Cheers!

      4. “At this point, there’s practically no way the Romney can lose this election.”

        No offense, but you’re delusional. It’s a coin toss right now and the major swing state polls slightly favor Obama.

        ” The only polls out there that have Obama close to Romney are so weighted for the Democrats they can’t be taken seriously.”

        Yeah, you’re delusional all right. Sorry to break it to you, but the Republican talking point about the polls being “weighted for the Democrats” is pretty much just that. Look at your “unsquewed” poll results all you want, but don’t be silly enough to pretend that their credible.

        “Oh, and here’s some of those shenanigans I referred to earlier. Yes, attempted fraud by Democrats in Florida:”

        “Obviously they are confident of an Obama win.”

        Wow, Tim went and found a voter scam that seems to be targeting minorities and citizens who might have just gotten their citizenship and, despite that being two of the groups that the Republicans targeted with their voter purge shenanigans, jumps to the conclusion that it’s obviously a Democratic voter scam.

        My, you are very delusional tonight.

      5. Hey, delusional boy, here’s one for you where we don’t have to guess who was behind it.

        GOP-Controlled Election Board in Ohio Mails Out Wrong Date
        “A Republican-run election board in a northern Ohio county sent out voting instructions to several precincts with the wrong date for Election Day and an incorrect description of the polling place location, leading state Democrats to suggest foul play in a presidential race that could be decided in a handful of states like Ohio by tiny margins.”

        http://crooksandliars.com/susie-madrak/gop-controlled-election-board-ohio-ma

        Nah, they’re worried about Romney’s chances at all.

      6. Oh, and what’s this?

        Wider fraud investigations sought in GOP vote scandal
        “Virginia’s Attorney General declines investigating GOP voter registration, but the Justice Department could jump in

        http://www.salon.com/2012/10/24/wider_fraud_investigations_sought_in_gop_vote_scandal/

        A huge, multi-state voter registration scandal with direct ties to the GOP and, oops, Mr. Republican Law and Order doesn’t want to investigate it.

        Nah, they’re worried about Romney’s chances at all.

      8. Oh, look at this… Multiple states…

        Dems ask DOJ to investigate GOP firm for alleged voter fraud
        “Founded this year by longtime Republican strategist Nathan Sproul, Strategic Allied Services was paid millions of dollars by the Republican Party to manage get-out-the-vote efforts in swing states including Florida, Virginia, Colorado, North Carolina and Nevada.

        However, the Republican National Committee (RNC) cut all ties with the firm late last month after Florida investigators launched a probe into hundreds of suspicious registration forms submitted by the company’s workers.”

        http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/other-races/263623-dems-ask-doj-to-investigate-gop-firm-for-alleged-voter-fraud

        Nah, the GOP operatives aren’t worried about Romney’s chances at all.

      9. My, all those dirty tricks and so many more linked directly to the GOP and various state Republican bodies on top of voter suppression attempts and voter purge attempts that have been ruled unconstitutional by some courts already.

        Why, you would think that the Republican party is worried that Romney just might not have it in the bag after all. And, when looking at real world polls through a POV that’s absent the delusional partisan foolishness you threw around above, the polling data confirms that it’s a horse race with a photo finish for either guy at best and might actually even be a slim Obama victory.

        But, please, tell us more about this alternate reality world you’ve spent the last 48 hours in.

      10. But, I’ve buried my head so far into the sand of Faux News Beach that I’m not even interested in debating it.

        Fixed that for you.

      11. Fox News, Craig? Oh, I wish it was just Fox News.

        Conservative talk radio and Fox News were just the seeds. They were just the acorn. And we’ve seen the mighty oak from that acorn on full display in the last four years.

        The big talking point that they pushed regularly on conservative talk radio was that everyone else was lying to the audience except them. Then we got Fox News and Drudge who played the same song as often as possible. All the rest of that evil, lib MSM was lying and only there on their network, on his overly glorified cut & paste & link site and with the talkers were you going to see, hear and read the truth.

        And then the net began to blossom like never before and we got the starts of what has truly become an alternate reality for many conservatives to seek safe havens in. They’ve built their own little world to get “real news” and “real facts” from and nothing else that’s rooted in the reality based community is true to them anymore.

        They’ve got Breitbart.com to tell them lovely, comforting bits of “news” about how NPR has officially become an Obama Super PAC and about how Obama is suing Ohio to suppress military votes. They’ve got News Busters there to spin and twist stuff and make it into something they like. They’ve created their own little world; a conservative Earth.

        Con Earth if you will.

        And the real fringers in the alternate reality of Con Earth have built stuff like WND to tell them that Obama is a foreign born, secret Muslim who is actually the bášŧárd son of an American communist party radical who secretly wears a ring with Muslim scripture on it and is in fact a closeted homosexual with a thing for older white guys. Sadly, I didn’t make any of that last bit up and they have people believing every word of it.

        They’ve even got their own little fringe publishing houses putting out fact free books that they then turn into “documentaries” that are amazingly even more fact free.

        And they’ve even created their own alternate reality polling data. Why, a conservative gets annoyed about having to look at polling data from the reality based community and declares that his gut says that the data is wrong, sets about creating a bûllšhìŧ “correction” of the data and sets up a site that publishes the twisted data that he declares real and it’s embraced far and wide as the real data by the residence of Con Earth.

        And there’s no such thing as fact checking them. ABC, CBS, NBC, CNN, MSNBC, Bloomberg, BBC, etc. are all liberal liars who spin for the Democrats and only tell “their side” of the story. Factcheck.org, Snopes, Politifact and any other fact checking source other than one that will confirm even the nuttiest lies are all liberal run, lying, George Soros funded propaganda arms for the Democrats.

        Real studies that come out of real credible organizations are always wrong if they refute the fantasy, but a few conservative written blogs, a couple of editorials and a position paper put out by a Republican campaign count as six “unbiased studies” in this alternate reality world of Con Earth.

        And even history gets a rewrite for this Bizarro reality of Con Earth. Joe McCarthy was actually an almost heroic figure, rounding up Americans and putting them in hellish internment camps just because they looked like the people that attacked us was a good and smart thing and both McCarthy and rounding up Americans of Japanese ancestry were validated by the fact that there were communist in the country in McCarthy’s time and spies for Japan in America in WWII. Airheaded ignoramuses rewrite Paul Revere’s ride, where the “shot heard round the world” was fired from or where a famous star of westerns was born and suddenly all the historians have it wrong, the ignoramuses have it right and anything that can be rewritten like Wiki is descended upon by hoards of alternate reality denizens who want to “fix” reality to match Con World.

        And there’s so much more like this from the last six years…

        It’s a great place for them to escape reality in and they seek refuge their regularly. Sadly, I used to think it was just a handful of the fringe, but these last two years have made me start to believe that it’s a substantial amount of conservatives out there.

        It’s no wonder we’ve hit the point we’re at these days with politics. It’s one thing to accept having a discussion about opinions where one side comes armed with theirs and the other side comes armed with a different opinion. But it’s another thing entirely to present facts and have the other side of the debate declare that reality has it wrong and, oh, look, here’s their version of reality and the “facts” that they wish to introduce.

        It’s nuts, but that’s what we’re seeing more and more of from some quarters on the Right and the population figures on Con Earth are growing by leaps and bounds every day.

      13. Wow. Have you not noticed that Romney’s momentum in the polls has ground to a halt, or that, while Romney might have an edge in the national polling – electorally speaking he’s still trailing?

        I think Jerry has your number in ConEarth.

      14. Hëll, if you want to see how far gone these people are, here’s the latest “news” from their latest favorite source for “real” information and “honest” analysis.

        “Released October 25, 2012

        The UNSKEWED Projection of the 2012 Presidential Race

        The QStarNews projection of the 2012 presidential race sees Mitt Romney being elected the next president of the United States with 53.63 percent of the popular vote and 359 electoral votes to President Obama’s 45.92 percent and 179 electoral votes.

        QStarNews predicts the turnout nationally will includes 34.8 percent Republicans, 35.2 percent Democrats, and 30.0 percent independents. QStarNews predicts turnout will rise by about four percent, or a total of about 130,955,000 voters including about 600,000 for third party candidates and the rest going to Romney and Obama.”

        http://www.unskewedpolls.com/unskewed_projection_2012%20president_02.cfm

        Mind you, these are the same people using their “news” arm to inform conservatives to be vigilant about voter fraud because, even as you read this, ACORN is mobilizing to steal the 2012 Presidential election via voter fraud.

        yes, that’s right. They’re reporting that ACORN is engaging in voter fraud in the 2012 Presidential election.

        0.o

      15. storymark,

        It’s not even a matter of having his number on Con Earth, it’s just a matter of looking at the facts.

        Almost every national poll is showing a close race. Those numbers indicate that it could go either way. Either side claiming victory based on those number is guilty of extreme self delusion.

        Now, if we look at some factors behind those numbers…

        Some aspects of the recent Romney slim lead in some national polls comes from the polls being heavy in data from the southern, Republican leaning states. While that’s not a deliberate skewing of the data, it’s a strong possibility that you are getting a skewed national number based on that and the skewed number would be in Romney’s favor.

        We’re also looking at something else that’s running the risk of being slightly incorrect based on reality VS methodology. Two reasons.

        (1) We’re seeing more numbers coming from likely voter (LV) polls now VS registered voter (RV) polls a while back. That always shifts the numbers one way or the other a bit. The catch is that the election has to be one where the turnout is consistent with the average election; i.e. less registered voters and more likely voters actually voting.

        That may not be the case this year. We’re already seeing a trend in some states with early voting where Obama is turning out more “unlikely” voters. That means that the totals may well end up closer to the national RV polls and not the national LV polls.

        (2) A lot of the polling agencies don’t have a reliable number when it comes to some minorities. We saw that with Nevada in 2008 and 2010. Obama actually over-performed VS the polling data in 2008 and Harry Reid did the same in 2010.

        They don’t have options set up with most polling agencies to deal with people who don’t speak English very well yet or still barely speak it at all. As a result, there’s a huge chunk of people out there who lean Democratic in most years who are more or less ignored by many polling agencies. So we saw Obama get a boost in 2008 in states where there is a heavy Latino population VS the polling data based on the Spanish speaking voters and Harry got a slightly larger boost thanks to Sharron “You All Look Asian to Me” Angle doing everything that she could to pìšš øff the Latino vote in Nevada.

        That needs to be factored in when looking at the numbers. Now, you also have the screwball factors that will hit both guys. Some people just screw with the polls for the hëll of it. Some people lie to the polls because they’re embarrassed to say what they think for whatever reason. That’s going to monkey with the numbers a bit both ways, but I don’t think that they’ll factor in this year as much as what I addressed above.

        Now we need to leave the national polls where random sampling from the entire country is used as a blanket statement on the possible voting. We have to look at the state by state numbers. That paints a different picture.

        Each man has states that are clearly his. But the “battleground” states? Almost every in-state poll in more than enough of those states shows Obama with a slim lead or a comfortable lead. You can play with the scenarios a number of different ways, but the fact is that Obama appears to have more likely paths to electoral college victory here. Hëll, from a couple of things I’ve seen in the last month, there are more paths to a possible electoral college tie than there are paths for a likely Romney victory in the electoral college.

        But, as much as reality in standing in stark contrast to Tim’s above deceleration, of confidence, I wouldn’t call it for Obama at this point either. Two weeks of early voting can change the averages VS a few days of it and things are close when you average all the poll totals.

        Obama had to overcome a depressed economy and the loss of, well, a sort of momentum after the first debate flop and then having to slow the momentum hr allowed Romney to gain. It’s neck and neck over the finish line and every single vote will count.

        And, of course, Florida has already created an issue with some of their ballots…

        And Romney supporter taking the stand that Tim took and being 100% serious about it is delusional. But I’d say the same to any Obama supporter who took that stand right now. It’s going to be a close race, but I think the averages show Obama with the better chance of winning a second term than Romney has of winning his first term.

      16. A collection of polls from the various states.

        10.26.12 | OHIO (CNN)
        Obama 50%, Romney 46%

        10.26.12 | WISCONSIN (Grove)
        Obama 48%, Romney 43%

        10.26.12 | OHIO (Purple)
        Obama 46%, Romney 44%

        10.26.12 | COLORADO (Purple)
        Obama 47%, Romney 46%

        10.26.12 | VIRGINIA (Purple)
        Obama 47%, Romney 47%

        10.26.12 | NORTH CAROLINA (Grove)
        Obama 47%, Romney 43%

        10.26.12 | NEW HAMPSHIRE (Grove)
        Obama 47%, Romney 44%

        10.26.12 | NEW HAMPSHIRE (Lake)
        Obama 48%, Romney 45%

        10.26.12 | NEW HAMPSHIRE (NEC)
        Obama 49%, Romney 46%

        10.26.12 | OHIO (ARG)
        Obama 49%, Romney 47%

        10.26.12 | IOWA (Gravis)
        Obama 50%, Romney 46%

        10.26.12 | NEVADA (Gravis)
        Obama 50%, Romney 49%

        10.26.12 | NORTH CAROLINA (Civitas)
        Romney 48%, Obama 47%

        10.26.12 | NORTH CAROLINA (Gravis)
        Romney 53%, Obama 45%

        10.26.12 | FLORIDA (Rasmussen)
        Romney 50%, Obama 48%

        10.26.12 | WISCONSIN (Rasmussen)
        Obama 49%, Romney 49%

        10.25.12 | VIRGINIA (FOX News)
        Romney 47%, Obama 45%

        10.25.12 | NEVADA (NBC/WSJ)
        Obama 50%, Romney 47%

        10.25.12 | COLORADO (NBC/WSJ)
        Obama 48%, Romney 48%

        10.25.12 | COLORADO (Public Policy)
        Obama 51%, Romney 47%

        10.25.12 | FLORIDA (Grove)
        Obama 47%, Romney 45%

        10.25.12 | VIRGINIA (Public Policy)
        Obama 51%, Romney 46%

        10.25.12 | WISCONSIN (Public Policy)
        Obama 51%, Romney 45%

        10.25.12 | IOWA (Public Policy)
        Obama 49%, Romney 47%

        10.25.12 | COLORADO (Grove)
        Obama 46%, Romney 43%

        10.25.12 | COLORADO (OnSight)
        Obama 48%, Romney 45%

        10.25.12 | FLORIDA (Gravis)
        Romney 50%, Obama 49%

        10.25.12 | VIRGINIA (Rasmussen)
        Romney 50%, Obama 48%

        10.24.12 | OHIO (TIME)
        Obama 49%, Romney 44%

        10.24.12 | NEVADA (Public Policy)
        Obama 51%, Romney 47%

        10.24.12 | NEVADA (Rasmussen)
        Obama 50%, Romney 48%

        10.24.12 | NEW HAMPSHIRE (Rasmussen)
        Romney 50%, Obama 48%

        10.24.12 | OHIO (Rasmussen)
        Obama 48%, Romney 48%

        10.24.12 | VIRGINIA (Zogby)
        Obama 49%, Romney 46%

        10.24.12 | OHIO (SurveyUSA)
        Obama 47%, Romney 44%

        10.23.12 | NEVADA (ARG)
        Obama 49%, Romney 47%

        10.23.12 | NEW HAMPSHIRE (ARG)
        Romney 49%, Obama 47%

        10.22.12 | NEW HAMPSHIRE (UNH)
        Obama 51%, Romney 42%

        10.22.12 | OHIO (CBS/NYT)
        Obama 50%, Romney 45%

        10.22.12 | OHIO (Suffolk)
        Obama 47%, Romney 47%

        10.22.12 | COLORADO (Rasmussen)
        Romney 50%, Obama 46%

        10.22.12 | IOWA (Rasmussen)
        Obama 48%, Romney 48%

        10.22.12 | IOWA (Public Policy)
        Obama 49%, Romney 48%

      17. LOL!!!! Jerry, relax!!!! Take your Prozac, take a deep breath, and just say, “President Romney,” a few times. Get used to it. You’re going to be hearing it a lot over at least the next 4 years.

        I can’t believe that all of this malarky was spewed all over the place in response to my assertions. Just… take it easy. You’re going to hurt yourself.

        The only point that I’ll respond to is all of the polls you just cited. Like so much that your side is putting out there (Don’t claim you’re nonparisan. You’re strictly an Obama man. There have been plently here who have been all for Obama and you’ve never had fits over it.), all you have to do is scratch the surface a bit and your argument falls apart. I suppose that the point you were trying to make by citing all those polls was that the race is tight. Well, I guess you put me in my place. Congratulations. I am so humbled. Oh… but wait. Let’s look at the fact that Obama, the incumbent, doesn’t break 50% in hardly any of them. I haven’t heard a pundit yet, right or left, that says that’s a good place for a sitting president to be in. Let’s not forget that most of the polls you cited are utter shite, heavily weighted so that Democratic turnout is predicted to be higher than it was in 2008. If you believe that will be the case, you’re a lot dumber than I think you are. Really, the best polling out there comes from Rasmussen. And interestingly, Romney’s doing just fine according to those polls. And lastly, I’m afraid I can’t let you get away with just posting a snapshot in time and pretending that it’s meaningful. What were these polls doing a couple of weeks ago? A month ago? Romney is surging. Everywhere. In states where the President leads, Romney is severely cutting that lead to within striking distance. Obama is bleeding support across the board. In states, that are Democratic strongholds, Romney is gaining. The states that comprise Obama’s “firewall” are no longer solid. He has a lock on only 7 or 8 states in the entire union. For a sitting president, he’s in huge trouble. Romney is pulling out of states that he has a solid lock on and moving into states that should be leaning Obama. Obama is having to devote resources to states that he should be able to count on. The President is on the defensive. That is very clear.

        Look, nothing is certain. We’ll see what the next two weeks bring. We won’t know for certain until after the votes are cast. But right now, it’s Romney’s election to lose. He’s holding all the cards. Obama’s run a bad campaign, and a lot of the chips have fallen against him. This Benghazi scandal is turning into something huge. This close to the election, it’s going to have an impact. If nothing else, it gets Republicans smelling blood in the water. But we’ll see. Maybe, Dear Reader will pull it out. From where I’m sitting, that’s very nearly impossible.

      18. And along comes Tim to prove that he is indeed living in an alternate reality with its own set of “facts” to burble on about.

      19. So Tim, which Romney are you voting for: the one who bìŧçhëš about the 47 percent or the one today who promises “big changes” and loves the middle class? The one who says we should go to war with Iran or the dove who was at the last debate. Romney has more slogan changes and reboots than GEICO has spokesmen. And yet you on Planet Con (tm-Jerry Chandler) keep lapping it up because he’s NotObama. You conservatives talk about Obama worship, but non-GOPers are more skeptical about our leaders than the conservatives who get a hard-on for any authority with an R on it and won’t quibble unless they veer even slightly to sanity.

      20. Are you voting for unquestioningly pro-life Romney or adamantly pro-choice Romney?

        Are you voting for lower the taxes on the top 1% Romney or not lowering the taxes on the top 1% Romney?

        Are you voting for hire more teachers Romney or we don’t need more teachers Romney?

        Are you voting for moderate Republican Romney or staunch conservative Romney?

        Are you voting for Reagan Republican Romney or not one of them Reagan Republicans Romney?

        Are you voting for keep some of Obamacare Romney or repeal every bit of Obamacare on day one Romney?

        Are you voting for Obama made things worse Romney, I never said Obama made things worse Romney or, best one of all, well of course things are getting better under Obama Romney?

        Are you voting for coal plants kill people Romney or I love coal plants Romney?

        Are you voting for I love regulations Romney or get rid of regulations Romney?

        There’s really only one Romney that you’ll get for sure if you vote for him. You’ll absolutely get pathological liar Romney. And, somehow, I think that’s the one that will make you more happy than any other Romney. So long as he says what you want to hear, nothing else will matter for you.

        http://saintpetersblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/romney-flip-floppers1.png

      1. Jerry’s a blog-hero. I dunno where he finds the time to dig all this up and post it all…

      2. You need to aim a lot hire than a jaded former optimist who has about had it with the process and 80% of the people who participate in it.

        I don’t have to really dig it up. As I’ve said before, I’m a news junkie. I listen to the news all of the time; even more so than I listen to music or watch television and movies combined. As a result, I’ve heard about this stuff enough times that I know the right keywords to Google search it and get what I want in the first two or three links.

      3. More power to you then, Jerry.

        The more I see of the news anymore, the more I wish the sun to do us all a favor and go nova already.

  34. What I’d like to see is a debate with little silouettes of PAD and Kath in the bottom right corner making snarky commentary, a la MST3K.

    P.S. Peter, I’ve heard rumors that X-factor is going to either end or be re-launched (yet again) by Marvel after #250. Tell me it ain’t so!

  36. Ouch…

    Colin Powell’s former chief of staff: ‘My party is full of racists’
    “My party, unfortunately, is the bastion of those people, not all of them, but most of them, who are still basing their decision on race,” Wilkerson said. “Let me just be candid: My party is full of racists. And the real reason a considerable portion of my party wants President Obama out of the White House has nothing to do with the content of his character, nothing to do with his competence as commander-in-chief and president, and everything to do with the color of his skin. And that’s despicable.”

    http://tv.msnbc.com/2012/10/26/colin-powells-former-chief-of-staff-my-party-is-full-of-racists/

    1. Actually, I don’t think that this election will be decided by “actual votes” as much as it will be decided exclusively by electoral college’s votes. Yeah, it’s always technically decided by the EC, but I mean that we may have an election result this year that mimics 2000 with a reverse on the party that wins. It’s entirely possible that Obama can score an electoral college victory this election while Romney gets the popular vote.

      At which point I will giggle hysterically at Fox News for a solid week as they how wrong such an outcome is and how outdated the EC is and go on about how Obama has no political capital to do anything despite, you know, their arguments for Bush after the 2000 election debacle were all 180 from that position.

      And, Craig, really? Krugman? You know Tim’s response will be to just declare Krugman a lying liberal hack and yada yada yada…

      I did find this bit in Krugman’s article interesting though.

      “This is, of course, reminiscent of the attack on the Bureau of Labor Statistics — not to mention the attacks on climate science and much more. On the right, apparently, there is no such thing as an objective calculation. Everything must have a political motive.

      This is really scary. It means that if these people triumph, science — or any kind of scholarship — will become impossible. Everything must pass a political test; if it isn’t what the right wants to hear, the messenger is subjected to a smear campaign.”

      Looking at a lot of the Republicans holding office these and the ones trying to get elected right now… Ain’t that the dámņëd truth.

      1. You know Tim’s response will be to just declare Krugman a lying liberal hack and yada yada yada…

        Well, that much is expected. After all, part of Krugman’s article was that Nate Silver is now a liberal hack because *gasp* he doesn’t just assume Romney is going to win.

        After all, we can’t have objective facts, such as those Nate Silver provides with articles like this:
        http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/10/27/oct-26-state-poll-averages-usually-call-election-right/
        when we can just rely on outlier national polls in Romney’s favor to drive a narrative, right?

        I mean, this bit from a Oct 26th entry says it all: “(Oct 25) featured the release of 10 national polls, but there was little in the way of a consistent pattern in them.”

        Here’s a hint, Faux News and the rest: Nate Silver is a helluva lot better at this than you are.

      2. Well, Republicans are the party that persistently attacks evolution ad tries to jam creationism down the throats of our children, despite getting slapped down time and time again in the courts. Facts simply don’t matter to them.

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