PUT UP OR…

Posted By: Glenn HaumanPosted On:

Doug Atkinson said exactly what I was thinking.

See, I was thinking to myself, Hunh. Okay. Here’s all these people crabbing (notice I didn’t say “bìŧçhìņg”) about a marketing hook (which, as Kathleen noted, she actually came up with. All I did was suggest it to DC) but that’s all that’s happening. Crabbing. So what else could be offered? “Broad Strokes?” “Lady Killers?” And then I thought, Hey. Wait. So many folks here seem to know so much better what will work and what won’t.

All right: A marketing hook. Five words or less, preferably, to sell the concept of three titles emphasizing female empowerment, at least one of which has a noir-ish tone to it, and all of which have a more risque slant to them in terms of story matter than the average DC book (although not *quite* as risque as Vertigo.) Oh, and it can’t be offensive to any woman anywhere.

Sing out, Louise.

PAD

131 comments on “PUT UP OR…”

  3. Lis, the bit you highlighted didn’t come from PAD, it came from me, a wholly different Peter. So he wasn’t denigrating anyone, as far as I can tell.

    Neither did I, at that. The comment you got dismayed at was made by a woman who is very sensible, who thinks men can easily be lured by sex while women generally need something more substantial, and who apparently felt that anyone getting on their high horse over a simple punny marketing line (the best one so far, let’s face it) is taking him- or herself far too seriously.

    As I also pointed out, she thought it’d be offensive if the books *were* centering around T&A. Most likely, they’re not (this is DC, not Marvel). But based on what little we all know, “Dangerous Curves” is harmless, amusing, reminiscent of film noir *and* indicating that these new titles could throw us an interesting curve.

    I don’t have to be a marketeer to recognize that this is a great line (okay, so I’m studying marketing, doesn’t mean anything ;)). But anyway, I thought I’d present a female point of view alongside my own, so if you’re going to get annoyed, get annoyed at the right person 🙂

    I can’t help it if the automatic reaction to a silly argument is “hey, they’re being silly”. It sort of comes with the nature of the argument :p

    PS to PAD: I’ll pass your positive interest in her style along to my friend 😉 (ironically enough, she’s not really into your writing style, most of the time, heh–though I very much am, also most of the time, since even the best writers produce clunkers sometimes :p) I thought it was a very nice compliment though, appreciating your style the way I do, so thanks already from my end 🙂

  4. Here’s my two cents:

    Enter at Own Risk

    Angels of the Otherworldly

    Dangerous Make-up

    Kiss and Tell

    Kiss and Make-up

    Glamorous Looks, Dangerous Moves

    No Strangers to Danger

    Fight Now, Make-up Later

    Angels Under Siege

    Unfeminine Mystique

  5. A different Peter wrote: The comment you got dismayed at was made by a woman…As I also pointed out, she thought it’d be offensive if the books *were* centering around T&A.

    I know that, but PAD quoted that comment approvingly.

    My point was (and remains), those who were initially objecting to that line weren’t doing so because they were offended or thought that women would be offended.

    The original complaint suggested that for women who aren’t regular comic readers (maybe nonreaders, maybe just manga), that slogan might reinforce stereotypes about the types of women in mainstream comic books. Notice that’s not saying anything about offensiveness, just that they’ll nod and assume more bad girls that they wouldn’t be interested in reading.

    Now, instead of asking your female friend whether she thought women would or should be offended by that slogan, ask whether she thinks that slogan would (in PAD’s words) “attract that great untapped resource, women.” Would the slogan “Dangerous Curves” interest her or her female friends into buying those titles? What might they assume about the books in question if they saw that slogan? Forget offensiveness. Would it be effective?

  6. Let me approach this from a slightly different angle — past marketing lines that worked on me.

    1. Put on a costume to fight crime in the streets? You’d have to be crazy!” That was used to market Mike Baron’s Badger. It grabbed my attention (and my money) because it described what sounded like a very interesting premise for a comic.

    2. She really is on a mission from God. That was used to market Evangeline. Again, it hooked me because it succinctly described an interesting-sounding premise. (The series itself, alas, focused too much on action, ignoring or underplaying much of the potential promised by the ad line.)

    It’s close to 2 decades later, and both those lines have stuck with me.

    Instead of a marketing line designed to tell us the main characters of these 3 books are female, I’d go for a marketing line that described the story hooks. (Not knowing what those hooks are yet, I’m unable to come up with such a line.)

    Using the word she or her in the line would be enough to tip most of us off that the book has a female lead.

  9. Estrogen on Edge

    Rag Time

    PMS is for Sissies

    Three for the Moon

    Yep, stick with Dangerous Curves.

  11. “Accessorize This!”

    “Beyond the Mask Era” (think about it)

    “We’re girls. So deal.”

    “Have issues? Why not?” (again, think about it) or “Have issues? Get ours!”

    “We Carry Our Own Books!”(I don’t have to keep telling you to think about it, do I?)

    Didn’t know if this was still ongoing, but I thought I’d add my $0.02.

    Budd

  12. “Sugar, Spice, Bloody Knuckles and Vice.”

    “These boots were made for asskicking”

    “They’re Angels? So was the Devil…”

    But then, what do I know? I like “Dangerous Curves”.

  13. Actually, rereading mine I want to modify two of them. If I may, these are the two I like best:

    “They Carry Their Own Books!”

    or

    “Have Issues? Get Theirs!”

    Budd

  17. If this was a democracy, I’d vote for “Femme Noir.” That would interest me as a reader more than “Dangerous Curves.”

    Humor points to “We Carry Our Own Books.” 🙂

  18. I ran “Dangerous Curves” by Ann, and she thought it sounded more like something aimed at guys than at female readers. She wasn’t offended, she just wasn’t terribly interested — which goes to the point made upthread about it not being about offensiveness, but about effectiveness.

    Many of the suggestions made in this thread boil down to, “Hey, Look! Girls!” which is rather different from a message that says “Hey Girls, Look!” — a lot of them still seem to be aimed at guys, whether they’re couched as instructions (“Don’t Even Think About Calling Them Babe”) or threats (“These Boots Are Going to Walk All Over You”).

    But if you want to appeal to women (by which I mean to large numbers, rather than the totality of women or to specific individual women), then the message would seem to need to say more than “Hey! Girls Here!” For one thing, focusing on the mere presence of female leads seems clueless, as if that alone is enough — “Girlfrenzy” seemed to promise a catfight (or maybe a mosh pit), and “Dangerous Curves” seems to promise hot babes more than it does capable heroines. It might be different if it wasn’t comics — but in comics, the expectation is that women are objectified more often than not, so if it sounds anything like “Bad Girls for Fanboys,” it’ll be taken that way. The context is part of the message.

    As such, I tend to think slogans with “Girls,” “Ladies,” “Curves,” “Glamour,” “Kisses,” “Heels,” “Make-Up” and other such words that would seem utterly normal on the cover of COSMO, would in the world of comics come off as leering or objectifying. A little too “You’ve Come a Long Way, Superbaby.” Women aren’t all about makeup and curves, but comics have a bad enough track record that the slogan isn’t going to be taken as just one aspect of an assumed well-rounded treatment, but as a hint toward objectification. If the only thing in the slogan that identifies it as female-oriented is about appearance, then it’s an exterior statement, and the default assumption is that it’s stories about women aimed at guys. If the only word that identifies the slogan as female-oriented is “Girl” or “Lady,” it’s again more likely to be taken as an exterior comment. It’s a tricky business, appealing to an audience whose general assumption is that you’re all about appealing to someone else, but if it was easy, comics wouldn’t have failed at it so often.

    And slogans like “Taking Back the Night” are empowering when said by women, but when said by men seem a little patronizing, a kind of “Aww, look at what the chicks are up to, ain’t it cute?” It’s co-opting, and it backfires as often as it works.

    And yeah, maybe at this point you’re wondering, if you’re going to assume the audience is this sensitive, why even try? I’d make two points in response — first, that the whole point of outreach is to reach an audience not predisposed to like you, so if you can get the easy ones, fine, but if you can get the tough ones too, then that’s even better. And second, that even customers you think are overly sensitive have money to spend. Promotion’s about getting them to spend it, not about dismissing them as unreasonable.

    Of all the slogans above, there were a couple that did the job content-wise but had no zing (“Strong Women,” for instance, is a label, not an enticement; it’s, you should pardon the expression, flat). The only one that struck me as having elements that seemed empowering and enticing was “Females Are Deadlier,” but even then I’d recast it as “Deadlier Than The Male.”

    It identifies the books as being about women without resorting to being about appearance — it’s not external. And it says they’re tough and capable. And sure, it’s from a line about black widow spiders, but even so, it’s more about capability than appearance.

    And if the line is FALLEN ANGEL, CINNAMON and some other book, it at least fits the two we know about.

    kdb

  19. And along those lines in my opinion and experience, except in literature having to do with nobility, “lady” has fallen out of Contemporary American English as an appropriate reference to a strong, capable woman… with the exception of very formal complements… sorta the formal version of “hon” or “honey” — which if said nicely can be complementary, but in isolation comes across as dimunative.

    now that is a shame

  20. A different Peter wrote: The comment you got dismayed at was made by a woman…As I also pointed out, she thought it’d be offensive if the books *were* centering around T&A.

    I know that, but PAD quoted that comment approvingly.

    My point was (and remains), those who were initially objecting to that line weren’t doing so because they were offended or thought that women would be offended.

    The original complaint suggested that for women who aren’t regular comic readers (maybe nonreaders, maybe just manga), that slogan might reinforce stereotypes about the types of women in mainstream comic books. Notice that’s not saying anything about offensiveness, just that they’ll nod and assume more bad girls that they wouldn’t be interested in reading.

    Now, instead of asking your female friend whether she thought women would or should be offended by that slogan, ask whether she thinks that slogan would (in PAD’s words) “attract that great untapped resource, women.” Would the slogan “Dangerous Curves” interest her or her female friends into buying those titles? What might they assume about the books in question if they saw that slogan? Forget offensiveness. Would it be effective?

    course you seem to forget the line would come hopefully come with artwork etc. the would help convey the intention/feeling of the line

  22. The best I could come up with with was “The Females of the Species…”. After all, Deadlier than the Male is already taken.

  23. I pulled out my record collection while updating my website. And it just hit me.

    Undiscovered Pleasures.

    It’s suggestive, it leads to a lot of meanings- all of which might apply to the titles in question.

    just a thought

  24. I was listening to Billy Joel the other day, and while I don’t usually recommend using song lyrics — why not some varition on some of the lyrics in this song —

    “…(she’s) Always a Woman (to me)”

    but not going with a cliche like “women’s work”

    Perhaps “Always a Woman _”

    the blank could be a rotating sentiment by month.

  25. Can’t be used, but I do like the “Heroine-Chic” line mentioned above.

    And what is this Cinnamon mentioned by Kurt Busiek…..

  26. At comicon.com’s “Pulse” site, there’s an article up about the new CINNAMON series by … I think it’s Jen van Meter.

    It being part of this new troika is just a guess on my part.

    kdb

  27. My really cliche teasing suggestions for a
    Y? Not!

    Hera Chicks

    Unfeminine Mystique

    Cron(e)ic Danger

    Triple XX Action!

    The Sisters of Merciless

    The Adventures of Ms. Anthrope

    Mind, Less Bimbos

    UnTrampled

    Remember, I was *j/k* on the above.

    More serious, slightly less cheesy suggestions for tidals, er, I mean, titles:

    Diana Noir

    Athena Risen

    Luna Regina

    Obsidian Visage

    Morrigan, Morgaine, Morgan

    *sigh*

    Tough parameters, trying to scream “woman” without using any of the more cliched cliches.

  28. This is about finding a tagline that falls enticingly on neophyte female ears without running the fellas off, right? Okay, I’ll have a go.

    All Damsels, No Distress

    Heroine…Uncut

    Men Rule…That’s The Problem

    X = POWER!

    I’ll “Weaker Sex” You, Y’bášŧárd

    Cunning, Stunning, and Stilleto-Sharp

    Got Power?

    And, of course, my personal favorite:

    THIS IS NOT ABOUT YOU

    Trust me…a lot of women will gravitate to that last one.

    Let me conclude by saying that “Sisterhood Of Risk” is rather catchy, and that “Gyn-o-mite” is the worst bloody pun since “show me the Monet”. Personally, I dont’ find ‘Dangerous Curves’ offensive, just a little tired. I expect more from the guy who managed to sneak the line “There’s nothing wrong with ÐÍÇK” into a hetero vs. homo debate in a very mainstream comic. Ironically, he’s the same guy who gave us “show me the Monet”. Go figure.

  29. The only one I’ve seen that I *really* is Josh Bales’

    Kiss and Tell

    What about:

    Feminine Savant

    I am not your doll

    What She Said

    Her-story

    By the grace of Godess

  30. Hey, why don’t we ask Dave Sim what slogan he would come up with? That should sure satisfy the feminists!

  31. I really like “Dangerous Curves,” but here are some other ideas:

    “All’s fair…”

    “More than meets the eye…”

    “More than skin deep…”

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