I posted a fairly neutral comment about how OMD wasn’t the direction I would have gone in, and suddenly that comment is making the rounds as some sort of proof that I “hate” (exact words) One More Day. This despite the fact that I specifically mentioned I hadn’t read it and I tend not to make judgments on stories I haven’t read.
So I shall now clarify: All I said is that it’s not the direction I would have gone in. That’s a far cry from saying that I hated it. Let’s remember I’m the person who did a three part storyline that brought back Uncle Ben and was pilloried by any number of fans for it, in some cases sight unseen. So it’s not as if I can claim to have my finger on the pulse of what makes fans happy where Spider-Man is concerned.
Hëll, lots of fans dogpiled on my run on “Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man,” crabbing about everything from a high schooler contemporary to a teen Peter Parker who had an on-line blog to the fact that I “wasted” two issues on a story involving Mexican wrestling, to the entire notion of how dare I write a follow-up to “The Other” (not to be confused with the fans who complained bitterly because they believed that there would be NO follow-up to the Other.) They crabbed about Todd’s artwork. Hëll, they even crabbed about the title of the comic, for God’s sake, claiming that it made it sound like a comic for kids…because, y’know, heaven forbid that kids should find anything about Spider-Man appealing.
Yet suddenly I’m embraced? Held up as the poster boy for being on the side of the same fans who didn’t hesitate to slag just about every aspect of my two years on FNSM, and lauded for my brave stance? Yeah, uh…I don’t think so. As Groucho so immortally said, I don’t care to belong to a club that would have me as a member.
There are complaints because years worth of continuity has suddenly been rendered moot? Okay, well…did you enjoy the stories when you read them? Yes? Good: You got your money’s worth. Can you still pull them out and re-read them? Yes? Good: Then OMD didn’t somehow cause the previous comics to magically vanish from existence. I mean, I *wrote* a number of those stories that, in terms of plot and character development are no longer relevant, and I’m not cracking up over it. I wrote them, they were enjoyed for what they were (or disliked for what they were), and that to my mind is the end of it.
Frankly, I’m kind of annoyed that all of a sudden my fairly neutral statement is being held up as an example of Spidey-writers uniting against some great outrage. I mean, jeez, we’re dealing with a medium in which death itself is simply a temporary set-back, and fans are treating an updating of “Doctor Faustus” as if it’s a crime against humanity.
Fandom really needs to get some perspective here. Perhaps it will lead to great stories and everyone will hail it as a great move after the fact. Perhaps it won’t, in which case it can always be reversed. Personally, I’m actually planning to pick up the new stories to see where it goes (yes, I don’t get them for free; shut up) if for no other reason than that they’re being written by some writers whose work I like. And I say that, not as a Marvel employee, but as a guy no different than the rest of you: A long-time Spider-Man fan.
PAD
• 
While I didn’t care at all for One More Day, I am excited for the new run, because I think that it’s going to tell good stories. I don’t like how we got here, but the return to the serialized “sop-operay” adventures and the supporting cast is something that Spidey has been missing lately…well, every place but FNSM. You did a real good job on it, and I thank you.
Bravo, Peter. I do have to say that I didn’t like OMD, for the simple fact that I don’t think it was well done. And it does call several things into question in the broader continuity, such as Peter unmasking in Civil War. But it happened. Over the years comics have done a hëll of a lot of things I’m not happy about. Couples have gotten together that I hated, my favorite characters have been killed or gone in directions I didn’t like. But those stories I did love are still there to be enjoyed.
For better or for worse the Spider-Man status quo has changed (for now anyway) I get why people are angry, and I do wish that Marvel hadn’t gone in this direction, and it’ll probably end up getting reversed at some point, but I do think there are some good stories that could come out of it in the meantime.
Yeah, this whole “debate” shows the tendency for fans to get overly whiny. I don’t like the overall idea of this reset, but I certainly can see why the Powers that be may have wanted to do it…
Peter David –
While I haven’t read One More Day, I applaud you for this statement. Isn’t it what we all say when we (as fans) are unhappy? “I would have gone in a different direction.” For the same people to herald that and have bashed you in the past because they’re unhappy with how their characters are being treated, with little or no trust with the people behind that character.
Rant over.
Great post.
HA! You tell ’em PAD!
Word. Thank you for this post, Peter. I hate the tendency I and so many others have of rallying to the one particular statement someone makes that I agree with; it’s a manipulative thing to do, taking what you said and using it for other purposes. So I try not to do it. Sorry it happened, but huzzah to you for clarifying.
I have your whole run of F’N Spider-Man and, yeah, those issues didn’t erupt into sparkly sparkles like Golden Compass daemons when Quesada made that decision. (Though that actually would’ve looked neat.)
A few quick points of rebuttal:
1. I was one of those who didn’t like a majority of the stories in your run. I didn’t like the Other. I didn’t like the Chameleon/Ben Parker bit, mostly because the notion of someone with Ben Parker’s face killing people just made me sick to my stomach. I liked the Mexican wrestling stuff, and I actually really liked your contributions to the Back in Black crossover. Your Sandman story was really good.
When FNSM was pitched, we were told that it would be a return to “old-school” Spider-Man stories. Heck, ‘Ringo was drawing Spidey with a Ross Andru touch. But for the most part, we didn’t get any of this. We got The Other, and The Unmasking, and Chameleon 21whatever.
Now, we’re told that Brand New Day will REALLY give us the old-school Spidey that we’re craving. But it can’t, because One More Day taints everything badly for reasons that would take too long to go into here.
2. “Can you still pull them out and re-read them? Yes.”
No, not with the same enjoyment as before.
Think of this- if MJ and Pete weren’t married, how did the first Venom story play out? After all, MJ was a big part of that.
How did Kraven’s Last Hunt play out? His love for MJ is what brought Peter back to the surface.
It’s curious that Marvel chose the path they did to end the Spider-Marriage, because it invalidates a great deal of the stories that have been published as trades over the last few years. Building the trade paperback program was a big initiative of Jemas-Quesada when they first took over Marvel. How would you like to be a retailer now, staring at unreturnable Spider-Man trades that have diminished readability?
I want to like Brand New Day. I’m with you, Peter, that there’s a lot of great talent on the book. But that talent could have still been on the book without this ridiculous storyline.
PAD, if I was you, I would’ve avoided all discussion about this, pro or con. OMD has so many fan’s P.O.ed at Joe Q. and Marvel EVERYWHERE, I wouldn’t discuss it at all if I was in your shoes.
Personally, I think it was more about one guys opinion in a seat at Marvel than what was better for the character. Let Joe try to rest on that bed of Nails he made from Spider-man fans.
I apologize for making any assumptions on your view of the OMD storyline.
“Think of this- if MJ and Pete weren’t married, how did the first Venom story play out? After all, MJ was a big part of that.”
Um. THE STORY STILL EXISTS. What does it matter if it is ‘in continuity’ or not anymore?
Your obsession with continuity is what is ruining the story, not what OMD did. THE STORY IS STILL THE STORY. It’s your insistence that all the stories connect that makes it hard for you to re-read it.
That has NOTHING to do with Joe Q.
It’s YOUR problem, not his.
Peter, I understood your “not how I would’ve handled it” for what it was. Nonetheless, it was welcome in both the context you intended and the context it was inevitably received. It made for a good “therapy session”(still ongoing by the looks of it) for a lot of readers.
Wait a minute, wait a minute–you don’t get comp copies? That’s ridiculous.
It’s funny, every time I see OMD, I read it as OMG. Which does seem to be appropriate based on the majority of the reactions….
I just want to know one thing, PAD, seriously: Based on your comments, you’re OK with a hero “making a deal with the Devil” then? Yes, it’s his wife who does the deal, but the hero allows it to happen. It doesn’t matter if you’ve actually read the issues yet, you know what occurred.
Personally speaking, any hero who makes such a deal is no longer a hero, IMO.
Kevin: so not a Spawn fan, then? 🙂
The theory that great new stories will come about because of OMD doesn’t stand, in my opinion, because any future stories will now be burdened by “Pre-Crisis, Post-Crisis” syndrome, meaning the question of what happened and what didn’t happen will distract from the stories the BND writers want to tell. Never mind the use of MJ as Jackpot, which will right away have OMD following this supposed Brand New Day like toilet paper on a shoe.
I was looking forward to BND until I heard the vaguely defined parameters of Mephisto’s retcon. I’m certainly not outraged or insulted, just sadly confused. But I will still pick up Slott’s arc to see just what is going on. Or maybe if Joe Q puts up a clearer explanation somewhere?
In less than two years Pre-Brand-New-Day-Spiderman will join the New Exiles cast or something like that. Or there will be a Marvel UK story in the Pre BND Universe.
After a long time away I started reading Spiderman comics again with Millar’s MK Spiderman and started collecting all SM comics (including PAD’s run). I though the Peter-MJ relationship worked. I really liked them together, but what do I know, I am just a “stupid comic book reader”. Now the Clark-Lois marriage… that one I would like to see end. 😉
The word ‘fan’ is derived from the word ‘fanatic’.
How much calm and rational deliberation were you expecting? 🙂
Cheers.
Um. THE STORY STILL EXISTS. What does it matter if it is ‘in continuity’ or not anymore?
Because if it’s not in continuity, then what is it? Professional fanfic? Several years worth of comics (all that backstory and history) gets thrown into the DisContinuity bin next to ST Voyager’s “Threshold” and that’s fine because they’re “just comics”?. I don’t blame Spidey fans if feel like they’ve been kicked in the teeth.
I’m thinking that I’m the only reader out there who enjoyed OMD. It’s going to create a bit of confusion as to how it impacts the rest of Marvel continuity, and ultimately it might wind up causing more harm than good. However, I thought that it was a well-told story, and by this point in my life (after 22 years of reading comics) that’s all that I really care about.
Personally, I sort of understand the whole idea that the older Spider-Man stories “don’t count,” but it doesn’t bother me enough to get upset about it, nor will it take away from my enjoyment when I reread all those comics. After all, I really like Ultimate spider-Man – does he “count” or not?
Anyway, I’m looking forward to the stories that are coming up. So far, it sounds like good stuff. (Oh, and I liked your run on FNSM quite a bit, PAD.)
Hmm. Personally, I think it would have been better to end the marriage by having MaryJane turn out to be a Skrull.
By the way, if Spider-Man has been de-aged, could he have gone back in time? I wonder how it will affect New Avengers and the like. Is it possible that JQ is going to have two separate continuities: one set in the past and one set in the present? Is it possible that in the New Avengers continuity, Peter did not take the deal with the devil?
I don’t understand why anyone who works for Marvel–and especially someone who is exclusive to the company and is entrusted with some of the most important characters–doesn’t get a free issue of EVERYTHING the company makes. Isn’t that just common sense? If they’re trying to cut corners this seems a dopey place to do it.
Now I hope this doesn’t somehow get turned into “Peter David Rants Against Marvel’s Pennypinching” or something. Just my opinion.
as for your post, it’s right on…but…to a lot of fans continuity, or at least the illusion of continuity, is important. You can come up with a lot of reasons why this is illogical or how marvel has been ignoring it for years (Wasn’t Ben Grimm a WWII vet once? How has peter parker gone through 8+ presidents of the United States and isn’t even 30? Etc) but it doesn’t matter. THEY think it’s important. And THEY are a significant part of a small readership. can marvel afford to really piss them off?
It just seems like both major companies are hotshotting it and it’s hurting the creative teams. You read a great story by PAD that has deep ramifications and you think wow, but then you realize that what seems like an “important” issue will be overturned before the year is out. The story is still good, the dialogue is no less great, it’s still entertaining…but something is lost, that sense that you are a witness to something significant. (Yes, I know, these are not real people.)
When Jean Grey died I actually felt it. When Captain America died it had as much reality to me as when Vince McMahon’s car blew up at the end of WWE Raw. The only question is when will it be reversed and will any effort be made to have the reversal make sense.
PAD, you’ve always been honest about your feeling toward Marvel’s direction but I think you should be careful–it’s too easy for people to interpret your words any way they want, either through honest opinion or a malicious desire to cause you trouble.
PAD, you’ve always been honest about your feeling toward Marvel’s direction but I think you should be careful–it’s too easy for people to interpret your words any way they want, either through honest opinion or a malicious desire to cause you trouble.
Yeah, but it’s impossible to avoid. If I say “No comment” then it becomes “Peter David finds OMD so terrible he won’t even talk about it” or “Peter David is clearly so outraged he can’t find the words.” Besides, when I go to conventions, I’ll be asked about it. At which point, if I respond, that will be subject to reinterpretation as people swear I said one thing when, in fact, I said something else entirely. This way I can just refer anyone who asks to my website.
PAD
Peter, I feel for you guy.
It’s times like these that have to make one miss the days of pre-internet fandom when the worst that could happen is someone would have to sit down and write a letter to the editor.
I’m sure the one thing you don’t need is to have a boss (or bosses) come down on you or take issue with what for all intents and purposes was an innocuous remark. I imagine just the mere statement you would have approached the plot points differently is enough validation for all the people who were incensed over the storyline to go running to and fro holding up your comment and screaming, “SEE! SEE! EVEN PAD AGREES WITH ME!” (LOL)
Well, I like the citing of the Groucho line in any event, I thought you might have gotten the wording wrong but, it looks like you were spot on.
It’s just the industry’s current crisis – there’s one every couple of months so, just remember this too shall pass.
What’s next, going down to the local theater and shouting fire? (just joking of course. If you weren’t involved in it you’d find it funny yourself)
Haven’t read OMD, and now that I know the broad outlines of the ending, don’t intend to. In fact, reading about it actually caused me to pull out some of my old back issues and TPBs, to read about the Peter Parker I had so come to enjoy (yes, even with the totemistic stuff – the various writers somehow made that work).
However, I also know that when TPTB make a decision, sometimes the writers just have to suck it up and write it as well as they can – perhaps out of a fear that if they walk, it might be given to a lesser writer, who’d make things even worse. (Remember what happened to the Hulk after Peter left…)
PAD has stated, plainly, that it’s not the story he would have chosen. That’s not saying “This sucks!”, any more than a plot twist that catches you by surprise in a New Frontiers novel (because it’s not where you would have gone with it) is bad.
In a similar vein, JMS stated in another forum that he wrote his part of OMD under protest, and “everyone within earshot knew what I thought of this.” Somehow, since he didn’t walk, this has been interpreted by some fans as JMS’ [i]approval[/i] of the storyline, rather than his fulfillment of a contracted obligation (and, incidentally, the collecting of a paycheck – not everyone is a bestselling novelist on the side…).
Murphy’s Rule of Internet Posting: Anything that can be misinterpreted, will be misinterpreted.
Let me preface this by saying that I am a fan of Peter David and love this blog. But I do have a difference of opinion.
You are right. You should have seen this coming–and should have known better.
You have been a writer for a long time and you know the power of words. You also worked in the comic industry and know the fanatical nature of its readership.
From the context, your statement did seem somewhat negative. Said out loud, “Let us just say that it is not the direction I would have taken things,” can have a negative tinge.
The statement was vague enough to be open for interpretation. I took it to mean that you were not a fan of the “direction” of Peter and Mary Jane’s marriage being dissolved. But it could be interpreted that you were not a fan of Mephisto being involved or a number of any other variations.
Granted, it is a leap to go from “I would have gone in a different direction” to “I hate the story and/or writing”. I’m not a fan of killing off Captain America but that book features some of the best writing in comics. But people who hate this story look for confirmation that they are right. Therefore, they chose to interpret your statement as a complete and total condemnation, which obviously was not what you were saying.
But, however, unfortunately, the burden of not being misconstrued lies with you. A simple explanation of what you meant by “direction” or illustrating what direction you would have gone in would have made it harder for the rabid fans to twist your words around.
Should you have done this? Ideally, you shouldn’t have to. Realistically, being the way fandom is, you proabably should have.
LOL
Wow sounds like a bad day at the office Peter.
I will not pretend to be deeply entrenched in comic book stuff at this stage of my life. I am not. I simply can not afford them.
Way back when I was you where the author that stood out. I just had a blast reading your stories. I also read every Asimov fiction book,Louis L’Amour,Stephen King,Robert Pirsig,Jon Bach,Edgar Rice Burroughs,Piers Anthony ,Michael Chrihton. The list goes on. You are the only living author I have ever read that actually interacts with there fan base on an almost day to day basis. That fricking rocks. I am not trying to be Super Fan Boi or anything. You just gotta expect the kindve crap your posting about after this amount of time. I think its funny that you even get worked up about it. On the other hand words are your medium *shrug
Thanks for the blog man you are always an interesting read with my coffee in the morning.
I’ve decided to, TRY, and pretend like OMD didn’t happen. I’ve also decided that I want to go back and read those great Peter/MJ married stories. Heck, I even want to re-read Clone Saga stuff and the horrible Clone Saga ending that I didn’t like.
I can not, however, read the new “Brand New Day”. Why? Well first and formost, I don’t have a job at the moment, but second of all and most important: I believe that buying Brand New Day tells Joe Quesada that what he did with OMD was a GREAT thing. It just encourages them to keep this status quo around.
So even if I had the money, I wouldn’t buy this.
The whole idea of Peter making a deal with the devil is STUPID (just the worst idea ever with Spiderman, imo), but also losing the marriage and also bringing back Harry…
I’m sorry. It could have the best and greatest creative team in the world with BND..and it just doesn’t matter to me….
I’m a huge Spiderman fan. I love Spiderman. It would have been great to pick up BND (I even briefly thought about it before hearing about all this junk). It seems like it might be good. Who knows. But I dislike the setup for it. And I’m sick and tired of ‘events’ with Spiderman. I just want good stories for Spiderman again….
BND is just another event. It’ll prob blow over. IF it does and the marriage comes back, I might come back. But then again, maybe not. It just depends if Marvel will FINALLY focus on great stories again for Spidey and stop with all these ‘events’…
DF2506
” I think Marvel as a whole needs to go back to what made Marvel different from DC: great stories that focus on normal people who get superpowers (especially Spidey). Hey where do you think Heroes got the idea? Marvel comics! Despite the spandex, Marvel use to always be about people….”
Well, I for one find it interesting to hear the opinions of people who really KNOW something about comics. It’s a shame that other people try to twist that, and I hope that doesn’t make creators like PAD more reluctant to interact with fandom.
When I really enjoy a movie, a series, a book or a comic book series I get emotionally involved. I establish strong emotional bonds with certain characters which also means, it matters to me a lot what happens to them. A series I really enjoy is much more than “just” entertainment to me and arguments like, “It doesn`t really matter because things can change again” or “You can enjoy the stories before” do not apply to me. Yes, of course I will still enjoy JMS Spider-Man – except how it ended. But my enjoyment will be tainted because I know what happened at the end and so far I have no reason for optimism that the new direction will be to my liking.
I started reading Spider-Man after a very long time because I was so excited when I read the message one fan posted elsewhere that JMS brought Peter and Mary Jane together again. I started looking for more information and liked what I read so much that I subscribed his comics and even also bought the trades. Why should I stick with a series that is missing now what I enjoyed most? The unmasking of Spider-Man, the storyline also involving Iron Man – I really enjoyed reading these topics and kept wondering how things will develop in future. Now I will never find out because it never happened. I feel like I was teased with a great story but the end will never come. A nasty voice in the back of my head is wondering if Marvel got cold feet, wondering how to move forward from where Civil War originally left off. Pulling the emergency brake and use one of the “It never happened” tricks is certainly not a satisfying solution, not for this reader.
I make you this promise: Even when I stop reading Spider-Man I will keep reading information about what happens next. And if there will really be a big turnaround and this move is being undone, I will most probably give the series another chance. But I am not willing to stick with something I don`t enjoy in the hope that maybe, just maybe, things will become better. I am a customer after all and read comics for my enjoyment. My to-read pile is constantly growing. I have to make choices.
People can be very passionate about what they enjoy or not. I know, I am one of them. I don`t think there is anything wrong with that. Only, I am not passionate about sports, which is much more common, I am passionate about certain fictional characters and stories. The big outcry over this move is therefore very understandable and again, as I said, I am not happy, too. That some people exaggerate, misread and a few at worst become unpleasant and personal unfortunately comes with the territory. That your remark has been twisted is not unexpected either but I am also sure, most people know the nature of fandom and the Internet well enough to know what I just tried to explain.
My experiences on the Internet are certainly mixed but for the most part, I find it very rewarding. I am hoping you see it the same way.
First I want to say thanks to Peter for hosting this debate and let us rant.
Second, while I agree with PAD that those of us who liked the Peter/ MJ marriage can re-read our old comic books, by that logic can’t the haters of the Peter/ MJ marriage re-read the pre-MJ comics? Or better still just read Ultimate Spider-Man, there’s a teenage Spidy who is unmarried.
Third, I heard that Joe Q. said something about heroes can’t be dad’s. Gee, does that mean no doctor ever left his kid’s birthday party to preform emergency surgery on someone, known of the guys fight in Iraq or Afganistan right now have any kids, no cop or fireman can be a dad. Sorry, but I take that one a little personally.
Forth, while this idea might have worked on Angel they didn’t go out and say the two seasons Conner was on the show didn’t happen and truth be told, Angel’s motives and reasons were better than Peter’s.
Fifth, if they wanted MJ gone why not let the bullet hit her instead of Aunt May.
Last of all, given that a lot of people don’t seem to like this course, let’s let the market take it’s course. Joe Q. does not have to keep Peter and MJ together, that’s true; but it’s his job to make sure the Spider books sell and if they don’t he’ll have to change things back and maybe he’ll get PAD to do it. We can hope!
Again I want to thank Peter for hosting this. I am very glad that there is a form like this one where our views can be heard.
I really liked Scream ish #2
I honestly don’t know why there is wailing and gnashing of teeth for.
It’s not going to last.
Trust me.
Either it’s going to be like the Marvel Owners in ’94 or ’95 telling Tom DeFalco that they were going to bring Reed and Doom back from what Tom had intended to be a permanent death (at least that’s how I heard it) with or without him. There was TWO YEARS of presuure including one fan whose letter in the lettercol was “Bring Back Reed and Doom.” ad nauseum (To which Marvel should have said “Thank You for that Letter, Bart Simpson”) and Tom resisted until the Owners that be (annoying) gave him the choice. (And they probably “offered” Tom that under pressure from sales and Marketing who at that time had aggrandized themselves. T’Lana would have loved them)
But what does this have to do with the here and now? Simple. Joe Q is going to have this happen to him where the change is going to be made and his participation will be optional but the actual story will not. Either way, I think Joe Q may have set in motion has policitical downfall, which is sad. Take it from me, the b****ing that the Die-hards and Wizard made with the clone saga (and let me be clear it was Wizard, not the Die-hards, how else do you explain them sticking to their story that sales we down due to the clone saga when they went up UNTIL among many reasons, there was no end in sight.) will be nothing compared to what will happen. At the very least Wizard should no longer be fawning over this.
“Because if it’s not in continuity, then what is it?”
Just what every story is: A FRICKIN’ STORY!
If I could remove one word from the english language, it would be continuity. It’s done more to harm comic books than anything this side of Rob Liefeld’s mediocre artwork becoming popular.
1 I think that what you don’t quite understand Mr. David is not that there might be great stories in the future, it is that the anger exists now over the way the story was told, the delays and the price increase and JQ’s cavalier and (at least to me) smug statements on the comic book resources intereviews. To be fair I should state outright that I haven’t really liked any of the big events marvel has put out for the past few years and I’m not buying Spiderman at all. But I think that the anger is genuine and it is very much like the anger I felt with the big events. To quote myself I once said that JQ and marvel were putting a highway through the Enchanted Forrest and using characters I liked as slave labor to do so. I think this anger is now boiling over, anger over Avengers Dissasembled, House of M, Civil War… All of the above featured shredding of characters and history to get the stories to work. In the case of civil war I belive the entire storyline was deliberately designed to get people mad and it worked. I think that anger is far greater and lingered a lot longer than anyone at marvel realized. But I was anti-sra so I may be speaking only for myself.
But I think that when you couple the glee that JQ is showing in his interviews about getting rid of MJ with the way it was done (Peter making a deal with the devil? I mean really, he’s not smart enough to realize that Mephisto will turn on him? Peter knows Johny Blaze after all.), you get the anger that appears now. I feel sort of sorry for the next writer, he has the same job Gail Simone had with Wonder Woman after Amazon’s Attack. After a character has been really, really shredded and you’ve lost a lot of fans you’ll have to write at least twice as well to get them back. And it’ll take a while for the anger to fade so no matter how well you write you might not be able to get them back.
To me at least marvel has worked very hard over the past few years to really alienate fans who have been around more than three years. In this case they might have pushed too far.
Of course I could be wrong, this could be only flash anger caused by a badly constructed and late story and a holiday where everyone had some free time to type. We’ll have to wait and see.
Mark
I think that, for whatever reasons people have, many people are upset over this storyline (which I know is stating the obvious.)
The second part of that is then: The people who are upset are looking for allies anywhere they can find them to give them hope that the result they see will be reversed. Just like activists recruit celebrities to their cause to inspire us lowly normal people, I think this is a case where we are looking for higher ups to make our position feel justified.
And unfortunately then yes…it leads people to looks for signs in the littlest thing, that people in the position of power are on the side they want them on.
Its sort of like when a hot girl flirts with you asks you if you studied last night, and you take to mean she thinks you are cute 🙂
PAD: There are complaints because years worth of continuity has suddenly been rendered moot? Okay, well…did you enjoy the stories when you read them? Yes? Good: You got your money’s worth. Can you still pull them out and re-read them? Yes? Good: Then OMD didn’t somehow cause the previous comics to magically vanish from existence.
No, it didn’t. And you know, if there were a universe-wide reboot a la DC to make the Marvel Universe more accessible to people for whom learning all the history of all the characters would be too complicated, I think I could live with that.
But this doesn’t seem to be about making Spider-Man or the Marvel Universe more accessible, despite what JQ might say. Contrary to his belief, you cannot alienate at least 2/3 of your fan base and expect them to support you and boost sales through word of mouth, saying “You should totally check out Spider-Man now!” I’m speaking as a guy who has read Spidey stories from when he was single and when he was married, who has walked away from comics and come back on more than one occasion, and I tell you this: I never found a married Spidey any less exciting to read about than a single one.
As far as promoting the new version of Spidey, Quesada can’t count on word of mouth from formerly loyal fans who feels like he’s stabbed them in the back, so what’s he gonna do? Go on TV to promote this? “Hey, good news everybody! Spider-Man is single now, and that means the books are better, so you should start reading!” Considering that the majority of the people who aren’t fans, whom he is hoping to convert, didn’t even know Peter was married to Mary Jane in the comics, this isn’t going to make any difference to them. This isn’t going to make the books more attractive. If people buy a Spider-Man book, they are buying it primarily because they want to see him fight somebody–they couldn’t care less about his marital status.
This is about JQ being selfish, saying “I liked Spider-Man better when he was single, so I’m going to break up the marriage. Fûçk what my customers want, fûçk my loyal readers who buy my product; what do I owe them?”
I don’t appreciate that. And he IS being selfish here, PAD, despite how he says us fans are being selfish. Here is what he says about fans like us who wanted the marriage to stay intact:
QUESADA: Sometimes when I look at the way that the lines of opinion have been drawn in comics about the marriage, I see the argument falling into two basic camps. The fans may not perceive it this way on the surface, but it is what’s happening when you look at it clearly. When we fall in love with these characters, we claim ownership over them in our own way; so for some fans, Peter belongs to them and no one else. So, the way I see it, there are two sides of the argument, two segments of fans. On one side, there is a contingency of fandom that wants Peter to age along with them and live life as they do. He needs to get married, have kids, then grandkids, and then the inevitable. One the other side, there are fans that realize Spidey needs to be ready for the next wave or generation of readers, that no one can lay claim to these icons, no one generation has ownership and that we need to preserve them and keep them healthy for the next batch of readers to fall in love with.To me, only one side of this argument is correct. If Spidey grows old and dies off with our readership, then that’s it — he’ll be done and gone, never to be enjoyed by future comic fans. If we keep Spidey rejuvenated and relatable to fans on the horizon, we can manage to do that and still keep him enjoyable to those that have been following his adventures for years. Will everyone be happy with the decision? No, of course not, but that’s what makes it a horserace. At the end of the day, my job is to keep these characters fresh and ready for every fan that walks through the door, while also planning for the future and hopefully an even larger fan base.
Here is what I have to say to that (copied and pasted from a post I made elsewhere):
ME: He says that the camp who is for the marriage wants Peter to age along with them, wants Peter to graduate college when they graduate, get a job when they get a job, get married when they do, have a kid when they do, be middle-aged when they are, etc.
No, we don’t, you (censored)! My God, he is making out everybody who disagrees with him to be so selfish it’s insulting. He says we’re like “I want Peter to be doing everything I am at the same time I am.”
What we want, Mr. Quesada, is for Peter to grow. Slowly. You know the rate at which he went from being a teenager to whatever his current age is? That is FINE. Eventually, after maybe another 50 to 100 years, you’re right: enough “Marvel Universe” time will have passed that he be too old to be Spider-Man any more. Now if the character’s still around by then, what’s the solution? Pass the dámņ mantle on to somebody younger.
There has been more than one Flash (the fast guy, not Thompson). There has been more than one Green Lantern. While I consider Steve Rogers the only true Captain America there has been more than one of him as well, and if the new guy turns out to be Bucky then I would accept him as worthy to have the shield even while wanting Rogers back. There has also been, as one Stanley Lui pointed out, a number of different Iron Men. Somewhere down the line, there can be a Spider-Man who isn’t Peter Parker. But at the rate he’s aging, choosing a successor won’t become a problem for a long, long time.
We’re not asking that Peter age along with us, Quesada. We’re asking that he continue to age slowly, continue his career as a superhero, and do it with the supporting cast that we’ve all grown to love over the years. We want the story that began in Amazing Fantasy #15 to continue indefinitely, instead of being rebooted. Sometimes one of the supporting cast is going to die, like Gwen or Harry or either character named May, and that’s never pleasant because we liked those characters. But we manage, usually. MJ is an exception. MJ is a character that we want to stay alive almost as much as we want Peter to stay alive, because she has been almost as much the star of these stories as he has.
Now, moving on…
PAD: I mean, jeez, we’re dealing with a medium in which death itself is simply a temporary set-back, and fans are treating an updating of “Doctor Faustus” as if it’s a crime against humanity. Fandom really needs to get some perspective here…
With all due respect, PAD, you were the one who wrote an open letter to Richard Donner because you were pìššëd øff about what was done to Superman II. Somebody could’ve told you to get some perspective. They could’ve said “don’t get worked up; it’s only a movie.” They could’ve told you that you were treating the alterations to Superman II as a crime against humanity and that you were overreacting. They could’ve told you that as long as you had your old tape or DVD of Superman II without the changes, you had no reason to complain since it hadn’t been erased from existence; you could pull it out and watch it whenever you wanted.
But you know what? You were totally within your rights to be pìššëd øff and upset about it, because you liked it the way it was before. You cared about the movie, you cared about the characters, and you didn’t want to see either one butchered. It’s the same way with fans like myself, Mr. David. We consider this to be butchering Spider-Man. It’s saying that Mary Jane, who by now is pretty much Peter’s co-star instead of his supporting cast because she is loved THAT MUCH, is a liability that needs to be discarded.
Also, I don’t see what the reception of FNSM has to do with anything. Yeah, some Spidey fans were hard on the book and on you for stupid reasons. I wasn’t one of them nor, I suspect, were most of the people who post here. Nor, I suspect, were the majority of people unhappy with OMD.
The only criticism I had of the FNSM stories I read was that Francis Klum seemed like a different character than the guy we saw in Kevin Smith’s “The Evil That Men Do”, and for some reason he thought that Spider-Man killed his brother when Klum himself killed his brother.
Other than that, I liked it. Overall I liked the teamup with the Sandman, even though you basically had to mash two stories together to save time, as you posted here. I liked the whole arc with Ero and thought she was a great villain. I liked the confrontation with Jonah. Other than that thing with Klum, I liked the Mysterio arc.
If you want to be bitter about how you were treated, that’s certainly your right. But please don’t judge all of fandom by the actions of some vocal people who have something against the words “friendly” and “neighborhood” or some combination of the two, or against Mexican wrestling. This is different. This is a legitimate grievance.
“This is different. This is a legitimate grievance.”
No, that’s not what he’s talking about. PAD isn’t complaining that people don’t like OMD. He’s complaining that people are misrepresenting his statements as a way of attacking OMD.
His point is that when his recent Spidey stories came out, plenty of people said that he didn’t know what he was doing with Spider-Man. But when he said that he wouldn’t have done exactly what OMD did, people started saying that his statement is some kind of proof that Joe Q was outright wrong.
The fans disliking OMD is legitimate. The fans presenting PAD as some absolute authority on Spidey, but only when they think he agrees with them, is not.
Okay Jason, that I agree with. I wouldn’t want something I said to be taken out of context or twisted around, either.
quote
>There are complaints because years worth of >continuity has suddenly been rendered moot? >Okay, well…did you enjoy the stories when you >read them? Yes? Good: You got your money’s >worth. Can you still pull them out and re-read >them? Yes? Good: Then OMD didn’t somehow cause >the previous comics to magically vanish from >existence. I mean, I *wrote* a number of those >stories that, in terms of plot and character >development are no longer relevant, and I’m not >cracking up over it. I wrote them, they were >enjoyed for what they were (or disliked for what >they were), and that to my mind is the end of it.
Well, this is the exact contrary of what continuity means.
Coming from an author that has writed tons of stories involving a real care on the character and his evolution in continuity, that’s a true nonsense.
In my opinion, obviously.
“Hmm. Personally, I think it would have been better to end the marriage by having MaryJane turn out to be a Skrull.”
You know, for years I cursed Tom DeFalco’s name for making Alicia a Skrull. Who knew that the day would come that I’d think it was genius?
Sorry, Tom.
If it got perspective, it wouldn’t be comics fandom anymore.
Any bets, folks, on how long it’ll be before OMD is undone?
Two or three years. For this retcon to be undone will require a major event. This year, we know that the major event is going to be the Secret Invasion. I bet next year’s event is already initially plotted.
Peter David: I posted a fairly neutral comment about how OMD wasn’t the direction I would have gone in, and suddenly that comment is making the rounds as some sort of proof that I “hate” (exact words) One More Day.
Luigi Novi: Just out of curiosity, what are you referring to as “the rounds”? Where are they saying this?
Peter David: There are complaints because years worth of continuity has suddenly been rendered moot? Okay, well…did you enjoy the stories when you read them? Yes? Good: You got your money’s worth. Can you still pull them out and re-read them? Yes? Good: Then OMD didn’t somehow cause the previous comics to magically vanish from existence.
Luigi Novi: For me, the issue is not whether those stories cannot be read now. For me, the problem with things like OMD is that it’s yet another reminder that any sense of permanence is a joke with comics from the Big Two. All fiction deals with the major passages in life: birth, youth, growth, the loss of innocence, major change, falling in love, losing loved ones, procreation, and death. Permanence is a fundamental aspect of much of that. Good fiction is simply simulated reality, and can stimulate your emotions in ways that are similar to how real life does. When a character is or story is written so well that you actually feel something after reading it, that’s how you know that that story did it’s job. Things like OMD make it much harder, if not impossible, for me to enjoy any story that requires me to accept any event with a sense of permanence with a suspension of disbelief: Banshees’ death, Captain America’s death, Jason Todd’s death, what we thought we knew about Gwen Stacy, the major events that occurred during Peter and MJ’s marriage, etc. Why should I care, for example, about Peter revealing his identity to the world—an event that was ostensibly a gigantic turning point in the 40+ years of the character’s history, after which nothing would ever be the same—if the people in charge of the character essentially admit, with OMD, that they didn’t realize that they were painting themselves into a corner, and have to weasel their way out of it? Whether you liked the identity reveal or not, it was an editorial decision that required a commitment to it. And like an immature boyfriend who hasn’t really grown yet into a man, the Powers that Be have now told us loud and clear that they can’t commit to this. It’s a colossal narrative cop-out. It’s Aunt May showing up in Peter’s shower, and saying, “I’m okay! It was a dream!”.
Bûllšhìŧ.
As a reader/viewer, I don’t want to stumble back stage as the magician is stuffing rabbits into his hat, and thereby lose the mystique of his tricks. I don’t want to pay attention to the man behind the curtain. I want writers to show me that they can do things that I, as a non-writer, can’t, and when they pull stunts like this, the stitches and seams on the fabric begin to show, so that the entire thing doesn’t look like one contiguous tapestry, but the loose collection of cobbled-together parts that you see from someone who does not know his craft better than you do. I don’t want to see writers throw up their hands and say, “Oops! We screwed up! Can you cut us some slack?” I’m tired to cutting slack to this hack work, simply because the writers and editors either don’t know how to commit to a given continuity, or are so contemptuous of the readers that they will simply chuck decades of it out the window because they jolly well “didn’t like” something that a writer or editor came before them did. Like it or not, the editors decided years ago that Peter and MJ would marry. Period. They did it, and neither they nor their successors have obviously had any problem telling Spidey stories in which Spidey is married. To ignore all this because of one editor’s personal sense of vanity is egocentric and selfish.
Ray Cornwall also raises a valid point: By establishing that Peter and MJ never married, then how are writers supposed to reference storylines that occurred during that time period? How will editions of Marvel Universe Handbooks, or similar reference materials be written? How am I supposed to understand a story that hinges upon such things?
That said, was the story itself awful? No. Because of these threads, I went out and bought Part 4 of the story. As depressing as it is, the execution, at least, was well-done. The story was powerfully told, and Joe’s artwork (among the first I’ve purchased in years) as evolved to a thing of beauty. His art was always nice, but certain excesses in his stylization have been tempered with a subtlety that fits as a story like this, displaying aspects that reminded me of Adam Hughes.
But it’s s a shame it had to come to this. There’s the Ultimate universe, and Joe could always start another line, perhaps similar to DC’s All Star line. But instead, he had to shove his own personal vanities down the throats of a lot of fans he knew didn’t want it.
What a shame.
El Coyote: Um. THE STORY STILL EXISTS. What does it matter if it is ‘in continuity’ or not anymore?
Luigi Novi: Let’s say someone does a Venom story that requires a detailed reference to his origin, and his first confrontation with Spidey. How does that work? What about lots of other stories that occurred during their marriage in which MJ played an important part, that some writer might want to reference in the future?
El Coyote: Your obsession with continuity is what is ruining the story, not what OMD did.
Luigi Novi: Acknowledging that some reasonable adherence to continuity is important is not an “obsession”. It is a fundamental aspect of decades-old serial stories. Or, as a wise man once said:
“A shared universe, like any fictional construct, hinges on suspension of disbelief. When continuity is tossed away, it tatters the construct. Undermines it.”
El Coyote: That has NOTHING to do with Joe Q. It’s YOUR problem, not his.
Luigi Novi: If it costs the company readers, or otherwise contributes to public opinion turning against Quesada or his future works, it could very well be both. Time will tell.
Gah. I just wish they’d stop all these events….
Marvel, under the rule of Quesada, has become just as bad as it was in the 90’s, imo. Event after event after event…
It didn’t start out that way. When Quesada started at Marvel, it was good (imo). He seemed to have a fresh prespective and Jemas & him created the Ultimate Universe and really seemed to bring back life to the Marvel Universe.
I wonder…do you guys think Jemas leaving is when things went wrong? I’m not sure. I know there were a lot of people who were happy that Jemas was gone, but which is worse—Jemas or after Jemas??
Personally, I’d have to say after Jemas…
What does this all have to do with Spidey??
Spidey use to be good. When JMS started out, it was JMS telling the stories he wanted to tell—Morlun, the Spider Totem, Peter & MJ back together, of course not all of these storylines were liked, but they were told within Amazing Spiderman. Even Sins Past was. But then, all the sudden, we got these multi-comic crossovers again with Spidey…harkening back to the Clone Saga & other 90s events: the Other, Civil War, Back in the Black….One More Day…….
I think things would have been great if JMS, PAD, etc were left alone to tell the stories that they had been telling….instead we get all this other stuff forced down our throats….
In my dream world, I’d love to see Amazing Spiderman be the only Spidey title (in regular Marvel universe. I want Ultimate to stick around). Peter & MJ are married. There’s only one writer (BNDs just got too many writers. It might be ok at first, but I think it’ll end up a mess…). And stories only last one or two parts. Maybe three sometimes, but no more then that…
Thats how I’d like to see Spidey done….
DF2506
Wow, someone took something a famous person said on the Internet and misinrerpreted it? Who’da thunk it?
As for the discussions/arguments about continuity, and whether or not OMD negates what came before, I’m on the side of thinking this *does* lessen those stories. As for why…
1) Tell me if this sounds familiar: “Not a dream! Not a hoax! Not an imaginary tale!” These lines were created and used to assure the fans that the promise dbig event was “real” and not just a daydream from one character or a fake-out that never happened in the comic’s continuity. Yes, we know there really aren’t superheroes getting powers and beating up bad guys; but we do get involved in the stories, we expect (or hope for) some sort of consistency and evolution of events in the characters’ lives; and to suddenly say “Oh, it never happened” does remove those past stories from the continuity.
2) Remember when DALLAS had Bobby appear in the shower, back from the dead, and the previous season was a dream? I don’t recall any fans saying “Yes, but the past episodes can be re-watched and enjoyed as much now as when you first saw them. The fact that we’re told it never happened doesn’t lessen your enjoyment any.” Instead I heard a *lot* of outrage, a feeling of being ripped off because all those storylines and events were removed from continuity and consigned to someone’s dream.
3) If continuity didn’t matter, why was there a book (published at different times) called WHAT IF? Marvel didn’t have a cover showing General Ross as the Hulk, only to have it turn out to be a nightmare of Betty’s at the end; Doctor Doom didn’t join the FF and wind up having that history changed by the Watcher. This whole book was dedicated to the idea that there were stories that were interesting but which never happened in the “reality” of the Marvel Universe.
The strangest thing I can rarely understand is why comic fans, who read comics for years and years don’t expect anything to change in the comics involving thier favorite characters. Or worse yet; why they would want everything to stagnate. I have my favorite stories, yea, but I’m always open to new ideas. It’s the main reason I read comics. Tons of ideas. Some are fleshed out extremely well and others aren’t. But what the fans don’t realize sometimes(I think), is that the creators of comics are fans of the books(sometimes)they are working on and they want to put thier ideas into the mix. Just the same as that fan would want to write the “best way” Spider-man should be written if he were given a chance. So thinking about it from that perspective, fans might realize that it’s all about the ideas and who is employed to tell/create those ideas for thier favorite super hero.
Perhaps the perspective of a fan really is different from that of a creator. What bothers me most about OMD/BND is not the loss of continuity, it is the fact that a story that I cherished and deeply enjoyed is over. . . and in a very unsatisfying way. The Peter-MJ relationship was one that always spoke to me as very real, not perfect, but moving in ways I rarely see in fiction. From the moment Peter lashed out at her post-Gwen and she decided to stay despite his abuse to the doubts and fears of both before his marriage (something the reprint in OMD 4 coveniently left out) to MJ’s reactions in “The Other,” there was just something special about the portrayal of that relationship. There will be no more stories about it. And, to make it worse, not even a mourning period within the story– it is as if the whole thing never happened. And that bugs me.
Like it or not, fans invest emotionally in characters and stories. Good stories move people and imprint themselves on us. Sure, people can throw whatever snarky comments they want on boards — and everyone knows how too many board-dwellers love to kick folks when they are down — but its that emotional investment, sustained over time, that makes comic books so special and the fans so, well, fanatical.
I guess I’ll own that.
Here’s a point I’ve talked about with a friend.
This is the first time we’ve ever seen Mephisto rewrite reality on a promise. We’re told that Mephisto was only interested because of the power of their marriage.
But Mephisto lies.
What if Mephisto has done this before? Who else was interested in a deal with Mephisto, despite the cost? Who else was Mephisto interested in doing a deal with?
See, I’d rather read that than OMD.
The strangest thing I can rarely understand is why comic fans, who read comics for years and years don’t expect anything to change in the comics involving thier favorite characters.
I think perhaps you should step back and see what the underlying problem is.
It’s not that people don’t want their characters to change. In +40 years of stories, the characters dámņ well better change… but over time.
People appreciate change over time. How long were Parker & MJ dating before they finally got married? It certainly wasn’t a shotgun wedding in Vegas after a one night stand, was it?
One of the most serious problems with OMD, beyond the pathetic story, is that it’s the equivalent of a f*cking train wreck that’s killed half a thousand people. It not only made Spidey & MJ not married, but it completely wiped it out, wiped out probably all of JMS’s work, and who knows how much else…
Parts of 20 years of work undone in the span of a few pages. Yeah, people have a right to be pìššëd about this kind of change.