Reacting to the incursion, chief negotiator for the Palestinian Authority Saeb Erakat said: “What this will do is undermine the peace process.” The Palestinian Authority is the government of President Mahmoud Abbas.
Is that what they have over there? A peace process? Processed peace, which is just as much real peace as processed meat is real meat.
Or perhaps it’s a spelling error and he said “piece process” which consists of Hamas raining down missiles from Gaza and trying to blow Israel to pieces.
Idiots. The second the cease fire was over they started firing lobbing artillery at Israel. What did they THINK was going to happen?
PAD
• 
I am admittedly an outsider and don`t follow the complicated history in that region in detail but my gut feeling when I see another report of this violent ping pong going on is they deserve each other. I feel very sorry for the innocent bystanders caught in this conflict on both sides, especially children, but to me it seems neither side is really ready and willing to give peace a chance.
In Northern Ireland things only changed slowly after people were not just accusing the other side of who started what and demanding revenge but a determination to say enough is enough. It is time to stop it.
It has been a while since I read the early New Frontier books but I feel the urge sometimes to do the Calhoun maneuver, grab these narrow minded, bickering people and bash their heads together.
This morning my husband just sighed after a while when watching the news and asked if I would please change the channel.
So far as I can see, Hamas agreed to a cease-fire in an attempt to get the blockade of the Gaza Strip to loosen. Since the blockade was still cripplingly bad (even blocking most humanitarian aid) when the cease-fire expired, to paraphrase PAD, what did Israel THINK was going to happen?
I have to say i’m starting to lose Patience with the Palestinians when there not trying to kill israeli’s their content to kill each other. Sure they have legicatic issues and yeah israel is guilty of many crimes against them but until they find a goal beyond the annihilation of Israel i’m finding it harder and harder to sympathise with them. as a people they really need a martin luther/ nelson madela figure and more importantly a vision of a better tomorrow… but i don’t see were that’s gonna come from
I’m not saying anything this time.
The history of that area since the British Mandate days is so complex that anything you say is going to be wrong in some way or other.
What Weber said.
Long years ago, I saw a cartoon of an Israeli and an Arab, standing in a street full of rubble, destroyed cars and splattered blood. One has turned to the other and said, “And we call this the Holy Land?”
This has to stop. Now. Both Israel and Palestine have the right to exist. The trick is doing so in harmony.
Miles
What Weber said.
Long years ago, I saw a cartoon of an Israeli and an Arab, standing in a street full of rubble, destroyed cars and splattered blood. One has turned to the other and said, “And we call this the Holy Land?”
This has to stop. Now. Both Israel and Palestine have the right to exist. The trick is doing so in harmony.
Miles
Idiots. The second the cease fire was over they started firing lobbing artillery at Israel. What did they THINK was going to happen?
They thought the Israelis would respond and the world, most of it at least, would complain about the lack of “proportion” in that response–the ratio of terrorist/Jews in the death total being far too uneven for these civilized times.
[t]he ratio of terrorist/Jews in the death total being far too uneven for these civilized times.
There have been 60 confirmed civilian deaths in Gaza as of Friday, 34 of them children. How many Israelis have died from unaimed rockets since Hamas ended the cease-fire? 5?
Even if you discount the deaths of Palestinian militants as “they got what they asked for”–and if I was an Israeli, I certainly would–Israel has killed 12 times as many innocents as Hamas has.
UmberGryphon, where did you get that estimate of 5 from?
Hamas puts its military targets in civilian areas.
The Israelis warn when and where they’re going to attack. That Hamas bigwig who had his house blwon up, and they killed several of his wives and children? He was told the house would be bombed. He stayed. He kept his family there. The place blew sky high because he was keeping artillery in the house.
Hamas offers no such warnings when they attack Israel. Why? Because they want to kill Israelis. Military, civilian, makes no difference. Dead is dead, and dead is good.
Israel’s goal is to live in peace. Hamas’s goal is to destroy Israel.
PAD
It doesn’t matter if they’re told that their house is going to be blown up. They have no where to go. Giving fair warning doesn’t mean that Israel has the right to blow šhìŧ up whenever they’re frustrated with rocket attacks.
Israel’s goal may be to live in peace, but it’s at the expense of Palestinians. The reaction of Palestinians is more than understandable. Israelis can’t expect to live in an area where they actively occupy a group of people and then complain when those people attack them. Any one of us would do the same thing in the Palestinians’ situation.
Where did I get my estimate of 5 from? Well, I can’t find a current Israeli casualty count. But http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1052228.html says that there were 4 deaths in Israel as of December 29th, and no Israeli deaths on the 30th or the 31st or the 1st.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1052237.html lists the strikes in Israel for the 3rd, but lists no deaths. I added 1 that might have happened on the 2nd or that I might have missed somewhere.
If anyone wants to argue with Sabir’s line “Any one of us would do the same thing in the Palestinians’ situation”, please read http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1052057.html first. Apparently Ehud Barak (the current Israeli defense minister) has admitted as much.
Hamas is a criminal organization that gained power thanks to a demagogic use of the situation the palestinians are in… I think we all agree on that.
Hamas either launches home made rockets to israeli territory or turns the blind eye when other groups do it. That is also fact.
Israel has a right to defend its citizens and its territory but… does these last days bombings do anything to pursue that end? Its not the first kassem campaign from Gaza, and its not the first time Israel retaliates in this fashion, the only difference beign the intensity of the response. One definition of madness is to constantly repeat the same action expecting a different consequence. When Israel retaliation implies undiscriminate misery for the entire population of the territory, that strenghtens Hamas, so we can understand why Hamas keeps provoking Israel, but… What does Israel pursue with this course of action?
You cant pound a million people into submission. You cant bomb them until they surrender. It doesnt matter if they share Hamas vision, if you have them locked in the biggest open air prison in the world and inflict the same kind of treatment to every one of them (water and fuel shortages affect everyone, cluster bombs pretty much too) they would sooner join the madness than appease their agressors. Because thats the human spirit.
from 1936 to 39 Madrid was surrounded by a far superior army. Landlocked and overcrowded with refugees, it endured two and a half years of air raids, artillery, hunger and misery. The agressors counted on the population to overthrown their leaders and submitt. They were pounding thjem into submission, trying to break them. A few years ago I bought a book as a gift to my father, a cook book with the many things the Madrid dwelers ate during the siege, a testament to the lengths the human spirit is willing to go before giving in, before submitting. If the Israeli goverment had a copy of that book (or the similar book the jews of Warsaw could have written) maybe they would rethink this course of action.
That, of course, if this wasnt an election year.
PAD, the Hamas leader that got blown off with his family was criminally insane. But when you knowingly pull the trigger on innocents it doesnt matter you’ve warned them, they are still innocent. Their parent/relative/neighbour criminal condition does not washes their blood from the hands of whoever killed them.
Peter, I completely agree with you. And I just saw the news; it’s making me sick that the French are protesting against Israel.
I’m waiting for the day all these anti-war morons (You can protest a war, I have no issue with that, but I’m sorry, some wars ARE justified. This is one of them) turn around and protest terrorism. How about that? A Million Man march against *radical* Islam.
But I guess according to these idiots, Israeli innocents should just live their lives in constant fear, and their country should never attempt to attain something better. You cannot negotiate with evil.
I completely believe Israel and Palestine needs to find a way to live in peace and harmony. But Israel at least TRIES.
Lemmesee, michaeljjt… protesting wars doesnt make me a moron unless its a war you agree with. Dully noted. But can I portest the way a War is beign carried? Can I object when I find a disparity between the aledged goal and the course of action?
I wholehearthedly support the notion of defusing Hamas ability to harm Israel, I simply think this is not the way. This is about the same strategy used against Hezbollah not so long ago, a strategy that even the knesset have denounced as futile and ill planned.
And as far as “trying” to find a way to live in peace goes, blocking the entry of food, electricity and medicines to Gaza doesnt go a long way.
Sabir: It doesn’t matter if they’re told that their house is going to be blown up. They have no where to go.
Luigi Novi: Then perhaps they shouldn’t be keeping artillery in their home? And lobbing rockets at Israel? If they didn’t do these things, they wouldn’t have to go anywhere.
Peter, I just saw the Jonathan Demme documentary Jimmy Carter Man from Plains via Netflix. Did you see it, and if so, could you share your thoughts on it?
I wasn’t going to say anything … really, i wasn’t.
Posted by: El hombre Malo
Hamas is a criminal organization that gained power thanks to a demagogic use of the situation the palestinians are in… I think we all agree on that.
The Irgun and the Stern Gang were criminal organizations that gained power thanks to a demagogic use of the situation the Jews were in… I think that if we read history we might very well all agree on that.
Sixty years makes a big difference in who’s a teriorist and who’s a noble defender of his beleagured nation…
By the way – did you know Dr Ruth was an Irgun sniper in 1948?
El Hombre,
No one called you a moron. Unless you happened to be in France, and on New York WCBS news at about 11:15 EST. But then that would be an unfortunate coincidence.
Anyone can think anything they want about the war. They can protest however they like. That is their freedom. And I never said it wasn’t. And if you choose to take any of this personally, well there is nothing I can do about it, and honestly, I don’t care.
I personally think it is the height of stupidity and cowardice to protest to the French government. You have an issue with the war? Go protest where it counts. Where it really makes a difference.
But when you knowingly pull the trigger on innocents it doesnt matter you’ve warned them, they are still innocent. Their parent/relative/neighbour criminal condition does not washes their blood from the hands of whoever killed them.
In war, innocent people always die. For once, I agree with PAD. This conflict was started by Hamas. They deliberately target the innocent. This conflict is not about the poor treatment of those in Gaza. Whatever just complaints the Palestinians may have, the reality is this is about a deep hatred for Jews and the nation of Israel. Denying or ignoring that fact leads to wrong statements like the one above.
When this all started, I was watching CNN and was stunned by their coverage. While I feel they are biased, I never dreamed they would be so blatant. If I didn’t know the truth about Hamas sending rockets into Israel, I would have believed Israel started this all simply because there was going to be an election. After almost 10 minutes, there was mention of the rockets, but it was justified because of how horrible Israel treats the Palestinians. No wonder many in the world think Israel is the aggressor with coverage like this.
Iowa Jim
Just read my post and realize it was not as clear as I meant.
My point is simply this: Hamas started the war, not Israel. In a conflict like this, it is impossible to avoid all civilian (innocent) deaths. Unlike Hamas, Israel is not targeting civilians. In fact, they clearly go out of their way to avoid it whenever possible.
The blood is on the hands of Hamas, not Israel. The only blood that would be on Israel’s hands is if they sat back and did nothing to protect their citizens. That is harsh, but that is the reality of war.
Iowa Jim
One more comment: Obama’s silence on this is troubling. The facts are clear for anyone willing to study them. He should be clearly supportive of Israel defending itself.
Iowa Jim
It doesn’t matter if they’re told that their house is going to be blown up. They have no where to go. Giving fair warning doesn’t mean that Israel has the right to blow šhìŧ up whenever they’re frustrated with rocket attacks
Frustrated by rocket attacks. I don’t know if that’s really the right word. I’m frustrated when my neighbor parks his car in a way that forces me to make a wide swing all the way on the right side of the road and go over the muddy part of the driveway. If he ever starts lobing explosives over to my side of the yard, I don’t know, I think I’ll have to find a somewhat stronger word.
PAD, the Hamas leader that got blown off with his family was criminally insane.
No argument there but how was he in any way crazier than any of the other major Hamas leaders? And if he wasn’t, what chance does diplomacy have with an organization that is led by crazy people?
As a smart man once said “If somebody was sending rockets into my house where my two daughters sleep at night, I would do everything to stop that, and would expect Israel to do the same thing”
Iowa jim, that quote I gave was from Obama. I think he’s on the right side on this and, at any rate, he’s been careful not to overstep his position. He’s explicitly said that there is only one president at a time. If he were out there making big statements about what was going to happen in 20 days I imagine a lot of people would be upset with it.
Looking at the choices he has made so far with his cabinet–Hillary Clinton as Sec of State for one–I’m not expecting great anti-Israel bias from his administration.
Hamas puts its military targets in civilian areas.
Your point being what, exactly?
Did the civilians unfortunate enough to live near these Hamas targets deserve to die?
What, should those civilians just accept the fact that their lives are in danger, that their lives might soon be over, because Israel decided it wanted to take out enemies that were succeeding in doing very little damage to it (not for lack of trying, but still) and anybody who happened to be in the way was considered expendable?
The Israelis warn when and where they’re going to attack.
Big deal. Based on the death toll, which is still rising, it’s saving few if any lives.
They knew they were going to kill innocents, they knew that they were going to kill a lot of innocents, and they went ahead anyway.
Israel’s goal is to live in peace. Hamas’s goal is to destroy Israel.
Way to oversimplify. I never thought you of all people would reduce this to a black and white issue when it is anything but, and when you’ve demonstrated in the past that you are capable of recognizing when things are not black and white.
The rocket attacks happened in response to the Israeli blockade of Gaza. A blockade that punished everybody–military, civilian, made no difference. What were they being punished for? Voting a certain way.
This is more than “an eye for an eye,” Peter. This is “an arm and two legs for an eye,” with Israel taking the arm and two legs.
I’m just really amazed that you were against the Iraq War but you aren’t against this. The Iraq War was wrong because it was inevitable that in taking out Saddam Hussein you’d also kill a ton of civilians. It’s pretty much the same thing here, except instead of Saddam and those loyal to him you have Hamas, and a ton of civilians are going to get killed here too.
I guess if somebody in a country is taking potshots at you with weak-ášš rockets that barely do any damage, that makes all the difference.
You wrote both here and in the Wonder Man limited series that insanity was doing the same thing over and over again and expecting something different to happen. This is doing the same thing as Lebanon, for similar reasons, and expecting a different result. Lebanon was not only WRONG, it was a disaster. How’s this supposed to be different?
Luigi Novi: Then perhaps they shouldn’t be keeping artillery in their home? And lobbing rockets at Israel? If they didn’t do these things, they wouldn’t have to go anywhere.
Yes Luigi, because we all know that every single one of those people who have been killed as a result of Israel’s actions was stockpiling weapons for Hamas.
Every. Single. One. Right?
Israel’s goal is to live in peace. Hamas’s goal is to destroy Israel.
Given that, isn’t the onus on Israel to find a long-term solution? I don’t know what that may be, but it’s certainly not bombing, right?
Bombing sure doesn’t help, Matt.
Everybody who’s lost a loved one as a result of Israel’s strike is going to want revenge on Israel. It’s going to be a lot easier to convince them to join terrorist organizations like Hamas now, because Israel has given those people reason to really hate it. More than they did after Israel blockaded Gaza.
You know, I included a link to a post made by Ezra Klein on his blog earlier and that got lost in moderation limbo. Based on its content, on the fact that I also said “if somebody attacks you then hit back, by all means. But if there’s a chance that you’ll take out an innocent bystander in addition to your enemy, then you hold your $#@!ing fire,” I don’t know if it’s going to be approved. So I’m going to copy and paste the whole thing in here.
WHO STARTED IT?
The Israeli Narrative: After the temporary ceasefire ended 10 days ago, Hamas began launching rockets into Southern Israel. This echoed not only Hamas’s actions before the ceasefire, but Hezbollah’s actions in the weeks leading to the 2006 war. The rockets may have proven harmless, but they posed a continuing threat and were, under any standard, an act of war by the sovereign government of a neighboring territory. Israel’s attack on Gaza was a response to this provocation.
The Palestinian Narrative: For the past year or so, following Hamas’s victory in the Gaza elections, Israel has sealed the border to Gaza, cutting off both humanitarian aid and commercial traffic. In June, a coalition of eight international non-profits released a report demonstrating that conditions in Gaza were worse than at any point since 1967. 80 percent of the residents were now on food aid, more than 40 percent were unemployed, water and sewage systems were in collapse, and hospitals were suffering power shortages of up to 12 hours a day. The situation has only worsened. The U.N. Relief and Works Agency for Palestinian Refugees (UNRWA) has been unable to get needed medical supplies into Gaza for more than a year because of Israel’s blockade on border crossings. It is this enforced poverty and immiseration that Hamas’s rocket fire was a response to.
The point is simple: You can argue, as Israel is arguing, that their air strikes are a response to Hamas’s missiles. But to the Palestinians, Hamas’s missiles were a response to the blockade (under international law, a blockade is indeed an act of war). Israel, of course, would argue that the blockade was a response to Hamas’s past attacks. And Hamas would argue that past attacks were a response to Israel’s unceasing oppression of the Palestinian people. And Israel would argue that…
The provocations and cassus belli travel as far back as anyone might care to trace. And whether you believe Israel, the Palestinians, or the international partitioners originally at fault, starting the clock on December 10th, when the ceasefire expired and Hamas’s missiles crashed into the fields around Sderot, is merely an Israeli press strategy. This is the latest tactic in an ongoing struggle over land and freedom and security and money and politics and religion and elections and oppression. It did not begin with the rockets, and it will not end with this attack.
I just read something which truly disgusted me. Apparently (and if someone else has mentioned this previously, I apologize) the destruction of Israel is in the Hamas charter.
Is the destruction of anyone of Islamic faith in Israel’s charter?
It makes no difference, Michael. You don’t punish innocents for somebody else’s sins (in this case Hamas’ sins). If you do, then nothing separates you from any other mass murderer. Nothing. Not even if you have the best of intentions, because intentions don’t count for squat.
Michael: I didnt take it personally, I just “caught the bullet” to demonstrate that calling those people “morons” on such a flimsy basis was a too crude statement given the situation. And french people protest to their goverment because, given it represent them, unlike the Israeli goverment, they wanted their country to properly manifest what they believe is the outrage of the french people… and because given any random issue, chances are the french will say something about it, loud and with signs, burning cars optional.
For some reason I think some of you believe I pretend Israel not to take action and rely on diplomacy. Not at all. Gaza is under the rule of criminals and rockets are beign launched, and Israel has to stop those rockets. My problem is the way they choosed to conduct the operation.
Water, medicine and power shortages affect everyone in Gaza, not just the terrorists. Possibly the terrorists are the least affected by the blockade because they already rely on an illegal network to smuggle weapons, they just have to us ethe same networks to get everything else. Of course, the blockade is detrimental for their activities but not critically, while the effect on the civilians may very well strenghten their popular support… besieged people tend to stick together against whoever they perceive as their aggresor.
Artillery and bomb raids (100tons of explosives just the first day) on a dense area are going to cause a lot of casualties among innocents. Israel using cluster bombs on urban areas does not qualify as “going out of their way to protect innocents”. Nor does bombing children because “their father should have moved them out”. Its simply a way to minimize troop exposure while getting good rates on Israeli media on an election year. Israel used to be able to take out bearded basket cases without this kind of carnage.
Rob,
So then Israel just sits there and takes it, while innocents on their side dies?
I just don’t agree. But as others have said, there are always, and its unfortunate, but always innocent casualties in a war. You cannot tell me there were not innocent casualties in the Revolutionary War. Or the Civil War. Or WWII. But all of those wars needed to be fought. Israel is doing everything in their power to be humane about this. More than (IMO) they should. I don’t believe anyone should need to live their life in fear. And Israelis, I think are due for that freedom.
So then Israel just sits there and takes it, while innocents on their side dies?
How many innocents? Five, after god knows how many rockets?
Yeah, I’d say Israel can afford to sit there and take it.
But even if they couldn’t, there are alternatives to bombing with minimal regard for casualties. Like, say, sending in commandos. This is the same country that managed to send Mossad agents into Argentina to kidnap Eichmann and spirit him back to Israel for trial under the nose of the Argentinian government. And those agents were successful.
If they can pull that off, I think that sneaking into Gaza, locating the guys firing the rockets, and killing those guys and only those guys wouldn’t be too tough by comparison.
Michaeljjt: Is the destruction of anyone of Islamic faith in Israel’s charter?
El Hombre Malo: not as a state, but yes of many organizations within. Effie Eitam, Knesset member vows to drive all arabs (I guess that also count christian arabs) out of Israel… and he speaks of biblical Israel.
Re: the various people who’ve been stating that the blockade is the reason for the rocket attacks.
May I remind you that Israel does not surround Gaza. Gaza has a border with Egypt. That border is hermetically sealed — far more so than the one with Israel is. If the whole issue is with the closing of the border, would you care to explain why Hamas hasn’t fired any rockets into Egypt?
In addition, I would like to point out that the cease fire was almost entirely one-sided. Wikipedia at that link has an extensive list of the Hamas rockets that had been fired at Israel over the course of the year — *including* during the cease fire.
The border closings were entirely in response to those attacks — the borders were opened every time they stopped firing at Israel, and closed again every time they started.
Note this particularly telling line from that article:
“During the six month cease fire 329 rockets and mortar shells were fired.”
This follows the familiar pattern of Israeli-Palestinian cease-fires: We cease, and they fire.
Michaeljjt:
Waging a just war does not make all civilian casualties justified. Were the Dresden citizens acceptable casualties? or the civilians evacuated from Konisberg/Kaliningrad whose ships were sinked by soviet subs?
You insist on mentioning the need for action as a justification for whatever strategy Israel is following, stating is humane enough. “More than they should” in your opinion (wich I guess says a lot about how you feel about the palestinian population). I yet fail to understand how you envision this strategy giving any long term result.
But as others have said, there are always, and its unfortunate, but always innocent casualties in a war.
When I think “war” I imagine two more or less evenly matched nations fighting.
This is anything but. This is a slaughter.
As a poster on CBR said:
Red Jack: Stones vs migs and tanks. Suicide bombers against laser-guided smart bombs. Outdated rockets against one of the best and most efficient fighting forces on the planet.
Sorry, son. That dog won’t hunt.
It sure won’t.
Heeeeeey – processed meat is still real meat
Daniel: so the blockade was a collective punishment to all inhabitants of Gaza because some of them launched rockets. One that didnt succeed at stopping the attacks. One that pushes the population of Gaza more and more into the hands of Hamas and its welfare network.
Again… may anyone tell me how is this a viable strategy? And please, dont insist again with “Israel had to do something!” because that I already agree.
The border closings were entirely in response to those attacks — the borders were opened every time they stopped firing at Israel, and closed again every time they started.
If I take you at your word, Daniel, then Israel is still sinking to the level of Hamas.
If Hamas fires at Israel without caring who gets hit, then Israel says “All right, we’re going to close off Gaza, and we don’t care who gets hurt as a result.”
Both sides are willing to sacrifice innocents in order to try to strongarm the other into doing what they want.
That does not reflect well on Israel. I don’t see one group of good people and one group of bad people; I see two groups of bad people willing to shed innocent blood as a means to an end, and a lot of blameless people caught in the middle while they fight. And no, I am not only referring to those on the Palestinian side.
So why should I support Israel over Palestine? Answer me that. What makes Israel so pure and Palestine so evil and undeserving of mercy?
The only thing approaching an answer to that question that I’ve gotten goes something like this:
“Well, the Israeli military tells people where and when they’re going to bomb, and their bombs keep on killing civilians anyway, far more than the Hamas rockets have killed. But they don’t WANT to kill civilians, so we should forgive them when they do.”
Rob, why do you keep citing the numbers of those killed on each side as some kind of justification? All you’re doing is excusing the Palestinians for the responsibility for their actions because they’re incompetent, and blaming Israel for being prepared and smart.
From the IDF’s blog: Almost 1 million Israelis live within rocket and mortar range of Gaza.
It is only because Israel has serious civil-defense procedures in place (in Sderot, they’re lucky to have 15 seconds of warning to drop everything and run like hëll to a shelter) and the Palestinians are inept that the death toll isn’t higher. It’s certainly not because Hamas has the slightest sense of restraint or decency — they recently scored a direct hit on a kindergarten that, thank heavens, was closed at the time.
At one point just prior to the Israeli bombings, Rob, Palestinian rockets killed one Israeli and two Palestinians (girls ages 13 and 5). Would a “proportional” response from Israel have been to kill a single Palestinian, and then two Israeli children?
Michaeljit, yes, the destruction of Israel and the creation of an Islamist state (like the Taliban) is the stated goal of Hamas’ Charter. It also explicitly rejects negotiations and compromises in its quest to render the Middle East Judenrein. Anyone can Google it up and see it for themselves.
Rob, why do you keep citing the numbers of those killed on each side as some kind of justification? All you’re doing is excusing the Palestinians for the responsibility for their actions because they’re incompetent, and blaming Israel for being prepared and smart.
Killing people who did not attack you is not smart. It is stupid, and it is evil.
And I’m citing those numbers because if Hamas had actually killed a lot of people with these rocket attacks then I’d be a lot more convinced that Israel needed to take action. But Hamas has barely made a dent. Even now that Israel is provoking the hëll out of them, they’re still hardly making a dent.
Hardly seems like a threat to me.
You know, John Byrne said something incredibly stupid once. Here it is:
“I’ve been thinking this since the various lunatic cells of the IRA began loudly declaring themselves “at war” with Great Britain, imagining immediately what would happen if the British government said “Righty-ho, war it is!” and sent over the RAF to turn Dublin into a smoking crater.”
-John Byrne, 2001.
Do you think he was right? Or do you think he was crazy to even imagine such a thing?
Put it another way: anybody who supports what Israel is doing right now makes as much sense as Byrne does there, and shows as much disregard for innocent people’s lives.
As long as you get rid of your enemy then it’s worth any price and no cost is too high, right? Doesn’t matter how much blood is on your hands.
At one point just prior to the Israeli bombings, Rob, Palestinian rockets killed one Israeli and two Palestinians (girls ages 13 and 5). Would a “proportional” response from Israel have been to kill a single Palestinian, and then two Israeli children?
A proper response would be to kill only the people who fired those rockets and nobody else. And if that’s impossible, if there are innocents in the way, then you do NOTHING. It’s that simple.
Re: El hombre Malo
It wasn’t a viable strategy, I agree with you. In my opinion, Israel should build a stockpile of Kassam-equivalent rockets and hook them up to an automated system that fires them in return, one for one. That way cause and effect is clearly established. The Israeli government had its own opinions as to the best strategy, and you probably do as well.
Re: Rob Brown
Well, the answer you’ve just provided is a very good answer to start with. I’d like to add to it that Hamas deliberately puts its civilians in harm’s way, placing rocket launchers in schoolyards and purposely bringing the more gullible Gazans into the places where they know the bombs are going to fall. On the other side of the coin, the Israeli government has invested millions of shekels (not as much as they should, in my opinion) in bomb shelters and early-warning sirens to keep their citizens safe, which is the *only* reason our death count is so low. Israel invests in its own citizenry, and the Palestinians simply do not. I can’t find the article right now, but the Palestinians once complained about a collapsing sewer system in Gaza and blamed Israel for not letting them fix it; it turned out that Israel *had* sent in the metal necessary to repair it, and the Palestinians used it to build rockets.
An answer I’d like to add is the difference between the two “doing what they want”s. Israel is trying to strongarm the Palestinians into not shooting at them anymore. The Palestinians are trying to strongarm Israel into dying.
A third answer is that Israel has not once closed the border crossings *without* rocket fire or some other event (such as the tunnel they tried to dig under an army base) to set it off. Israel is following your standard tit-for-tat game theory scenario: “You fire, we close the borders. You stop firing, we reopen them.” Israel’s policy is entirely reactive; only Hamas ever initiates hostilities. If they’d only leave well enough alone the next time the border crossings are reopened, we could live in peace forever — but they don’t want to.
While I’m quoting John Byrne, here’s more.
The only acceptable response, now that we are officially in a new world, is for the American government to go Old Testament on these motherf***ers. Operation Flaming Sword. Find them and kill them. And kill their wives, their children, their mothers, their fathers, their brothers, sisters, cousins, aunts, uncles, butchers, bakers, candlestick makers. Go Super-Israel, and let them know what it feels like to be “at war” with the United States.
-John Byrne, 2001
I thought that Peter David was supposed to be DIFFERENT from that nutjob.
You know, I’m sorry that I’ve used some inflammatory language and statements because that’s probably going to make people less likely to try to see my point of view.
I’m not the least bit sorry for being angry.
I feel like I’m talking to a bunch of neo-cons here, when I thought most of the people who posted here were anti-war, were against war and believed it should be declared only when it was absolutely necessary, only when not declaring war would certainly result in the demise of your nation.
Instead I’m reading this crap about how punishing everybody in Gaza for the actions of a few that hardly did any damage is totally justified. Because apparently the loss of a handful of Israeli lives demands hundreds of Palestinians be killed, because apparently Israeli lives are worth a lot more.
Just like American lives are supposed to be worth more than Iraqi lives.
That anybody would support such an action, by any country, disgusts me to my core. The fact that people whom I thought shared my values as far as being anti-war and anti-kiling turn out to hold human life so cheaply because it’s Palestinian life instead of Israeli life…that makes it even harder for me to swallow.
Ask yourselves if you’d feel the same way if these were two other countries in some other part of the world, countries you had never heard of and had no preconceptions about.
You should ask yourself *why* the Palestinians hardly do any damage. Would they be able to kill more Israelis if Gaza had not been blockaded? Would they be able to kill more Israelis if the Israeli government had invested less in protective measures? Would they be able to kill more Israelis if not for the fear of reprisal? Would they be able to kill more Israelis if Israel were not actively stopping them from doing so by killing Hamas leaders and members?
The answer to all of that is, of course, yes. The Palestinians are not doing minimal damage because that’s all they want to do — they are doing minimal damage because that’s all they are *able* to do, and Israeli civilians have their government’s policies to thank for that.
The next question, of course, is what would happen if Israel stopped? What would happen if Iran smuggles a nuclear weapon into Hamas or Hizbullah hands?
The only human life I hold cheaply is that which holds other human life cheaply.
Hamas puts its military targets in civilian areas.
Your point being what, exactly?
That it takes a particular kind of fanaticism to see putting military targets in civilian areas as a win/win situation. Either Israel doesn’t bomb the areas because they’re displaying a consideration for civilians that Hamas doesn’t share. Or if Israel does bomb the areas, then Hamas figures it can count on the world to rear up in condemnation and declare Israel evil for killing civilians.
And honestly? I’m not sure what constitutes a civilian anymore. They’re indoctrinating their children into a philosophy that says Israel must be wiped off the face of the earth. You read about the Hamas leader whose children were killed in the raid and your first thought is, “Oh, those poor children”…except last year that same leader sent one of his own sons on a suicide bombing raid to blow up Israeli civilians.
Basically, their main weapon isn’t artillery, isn’t suicide bombers, isn’t even propaganda. Their main weapon is counting on Israel to be more considerate of human life than they are.
PAD