Several young Jewish kids were attacked by ten angry poorly educated Christians (yes, their religion is relevant as is their lack of education; you’ll see why) on the subway the other day. The Jewish kids were returning from a Chanukah celebration and were carrying a menorah. The Christian guys (one of whom has a Myspace page depicting him holding a gun to his girlfriend’s head; what a riot) wished the Jewish kids a Merry Christmas. Apparently they thought they were being sarcastic and were under the impression the Jewish kids would feel duly insulted. Instead the Jewish kids wished them a happy Chanukah right back. The Christians took offense, angrily declaring that the Jews had killed their Savior (see, that’s where the religion is relevant) on Chanukah (that’s where the lack of education is relevant) and that the Jewish kids were going to go straight to hëll. Apparently endeavoring to give them a preview, one of them spat on one of the Jewish kids. The Jewish kid calmly declared intent to, like Jesus, turn the other cheek. Whereupon the Christian guys attacked.
And who stepped in to intervene? A Muslim guy, who got two black eyes for his trouble.
Fortunately police were present at the next stop to arrest the attackers, one of whom was already slated to begin a six month jail stay in January for beating up a black guy in 2005.
No word from the MTA as to where hate crimes and assaults rank in desireability in comparison to pole dancers.
PAD
• 
Setting the religious issues, home environments and the race issues aside… let’s put the responsibility where it belongs – on choices. The bully chose to hurt someone, fully aware of what he was doing and knowing it was not acceptable. The man who stepped in also made a choice in his reaction, as did the group of boys who were attacked. Choices are completely our own, and often what we think is a good one for us, others think is a poor one for them. In some cases, like this one, it’s easy for me to see who made the wrong one… becuase IMHO, a choice that physically hurts another person is always the wrong one. This is strictly MY choice for the way I live – others must make their own.
Bill Mulligan – Perhaps so. If he has been that open, you are probably right.
Mike – Here in the real world, the things attached to (TM) are trade marked (hence “TM”). In your world, it has some sort of postmodern ironic meaning which is known only to you. On Earth, most of us use our words to convey meaning, rather than as linguistic mášŧûrbáŧìøņ.
I answered your question.
If you don’t enjoy communicating, why would anyone emulate you?
Along the lines of overreactions, a 10 year old was arrested and charged with a felony for bringing a steak knife to school for the sole purpose of eating her leftover steak for lunch…
http://news.finditt.com/NewsStory.aspx?id=30807&cat=0\
Poor girl how has a police record…
Oops.. Typo in above link. Sorry
http://news.finditt.com/NewsStory.aspx?id=30807&cat=0
I understand why schools have had to adopt a “zero tolerance” policy with respect to violence. Time was, a fight at worst resulted in some bruises and maybe a bloody nose. Today a violent confrontation between schoolchildren carries a risk of turning lethal. For that reason, I could understand why a school would choose to prohibit students from bringing steak knives to school.
But the incident in Ocala should have ended with a lunch monitor confiscating the knife and explaining why. The girl should not have been arrested and sure as hëll should not be facing felony charges. Now we’ve got a 10-year-old who is probably scared out of her wits, confused, and being exposed to some truly violent kids in juvenile detention (my girlfriend used to work for a juvenile detention facility, so I know what I’m talking about). All because she wanted to have leftover steak for lunch.
The intent of the school’s policy may be to protect students, but overzealous and rigid policies like this do harm rather than good. As has already been discussed, Hëll is paved with good intentions.
(The road to Hëll may be similarly paved as well. 😉 )
Re: the girl and the steak knife to cut her steak: Unless there’s more to the story than that brief blurb told us, that’s just nuts. According to the piece, she wasn’t using it in a threatening manner; and what’s more, a steak knife is a utensil, not a weapon. Yes, it can be _used_ as a weapon; but so could lots of things. You could probably do a lot of damage if you hit someone in the head with a fully loaded book bag .
On another note, and possibly of interest to Bill Mulligan, Jerry Chandler and other aficianodas of zombies (since that particular group of undead have already been mentioned in this thread), the summer 2007 edition of SCYWEB BEM audiozine (found at SCYWEB BEM.com) features a story called “Manhattan Monsters” by Hank Quense, which concerns zombies.
But not your ordinary brain-eating zombies. These are your hard-working, law-abiding, organized sports-playing, harrassed by the Attorney General as “security risks” for being different zombies (though the Z word is never actually used; they’re referred to as undead.)
That same edition of SCYWEB BEM also contains a story by yours truly.
Rick
So…
Don’t eat steak in school.
Don’t write zombie stories in school.
Don’t do creative writing projects in school.
Don’t leave your 12 inch G.I. Joe’s gun in you pocket when you go to school.
Don’t give a friend with a headache or cramps an asprin in school.
Don’t sing funny songs about running over the teacher with a train.
Don’t be hyper or curious (ADHA).
Don’t think (SOLs).
Yeah, home schooling just keeps looking better and better every second.
As someone who has actually seen people with both forks and pens rammed into their head…
Are forks allowed at the school? How about pens and pencils?
And, hey, don’t let those kids sneak belts into school. Sure, they may say that they’re just using them to hold up their pants, but we all know that you really use those things as ninja weapons to choke out an enemy.
How could the schools let that slip by?
“I understand why schools have had to adopt a “zero tolerance” policy with respect to violence.”
I can undestand that, too. But unless the school is vegie/vegan, using a tool to cut her lunch does not classify exactly as violence. As others have mentioned, there are many things just as deadly sitting in bookbags all over the country at this very moment. I don’t think our schools have enough detention slips to hand out.
Zero Tolerance to me says “we’re too stupid to apply common sense and reason in our discipline.” Why bother having to think about a situation when you can just consult a list, cross-reference it with a punishment, and hand out a form-letter? This steak-knife situation is a perfect example of a missed teaching experience. Rather than call the police…can you imagine the 911 call? “Please, you’ve got to come quick, there’s a 10 year old girl here with a (gasp) steak knife, and she’s..she’s…o my god, she’s CUTTING her LUNCH with it!”…the staff could have confiscated it if that’s the policy, and then used it as an awareness event to remind everyone that knives of any kind are prohibited from school grounds, followed up by a letter to each parent.
Instead, there’s a 10 year old girl that’s going to have to face the potential stigma of having a felony charge against her for nothing more than the fact that she’s smart enough to want to use tools to eat her lunch.
“Yeah, home schooling just keeps looking better and better every second.”
We’ve long passed that point. We’re just getting into potty training and manners, and let me tell you, I look forward to continuing to be the primary educator (along with my wife) for our kids. I don’t know why any parent would want to allow anyone else to be there when their kid does something new for the first time. That look of wonder and huge smile will never get old for me.
Jerry, did you mean “ADHD” rather than “ADHA?”
As an aside, I have ADD… or ADHD. I don’t know when they added the “H.” I wasn’t paying attention.
(Tim Lynch claims ADD and ADHD are separate diagnoses but I’ve seen conflicting information. I’d try to sort it out, but… ooohhh, shiny…)
I realize no one here has claimed that ADD isn’t real, but as someone who suffers from it I get angry when people make the illogical leap from statistics indicating the possibility that doctors have overbroadened the diagnostic criteria for ADD to “the disorder isn’t real.” Trust me: it’s real for some of us, and without medication it can be pretty dámņëd hard for us to function. It’s not an either-or situation.
Jerry wrote: Don’t write zombie stories in school.
I guess I should be glad that no one forced me into counseling (or an exorcism) when I wrote a short horror story about Satan’s son for the high school literary magazine. Granted, that was many moons ago. Maybe they were too distracted by trying to ban Cyndi Lauper’s “She Bop” song… LOL
Bobb wrote: But unless the school is vegie/vegan, using a tool to cut her lunch does not classify exactly as violence.
I’m presuming they think it would be safer for her to use a flimsy plastic knife. Though how the possibility of a plastic knife snapping and flying through the air would be better is beyond me.
Yeah, I meant ADHD and I’m not saying that there is no such thing. I just find that kids who are just being normal five year olds are getting tagged as ADHD or ADD and pumped full of meds these days. I don’t have ADHD, but I see kids who acted a lot like I did between the ages of 5 and 10 getting slapped with the ADHD tag and then getting stopped from growing into everything that they could be.It sucks.
What were we talking about again?
Zombies.
mmmmmmmmmm, zombies.
Bill, one of the brightest guys teaching at my school is diagnosed ADD or ADHD, one of those. I’ve seen a number of pretty bright kids who have not yet reached anywhere near their potential because they can’t get the medication right. I wonder if it;s like dyslexia which, if I’m correct, also seems frequently linked to above average intelligence.
I also wonder if what we now consider “problems” were once pretty useful in at least some members of a human social order. When we lived in groups of 20 or so it was probably a good thing to have a few members of the tribe who were ADD, a few who were obsessive compulsive (especially when it came to grooming for lice), hëll, even the schizophrenic was good for a laugh. It’s not like we had Time Warner Cable.
Now we live in a world where the pressure is to have one size fits all. And it’ll get worse–wait until we can genetically select our kids. Recipe for disaster, if you ask me.
Ahm the schizophrenic…
Recently read about scientists who removed some monkeys that appeared to be “other than normal” mentally. (I don’t know exactly what they termed them, but I think it was schizophrenic or maybe just paranoid.) They thought they would see a vast improvement in the attitiudes of the monkeys.
They all died.
Not from emotional distress or disease, but because they had no members remaining with sleep irregularities or extreme awareness of the surroundings. The troop of monkeys all fell to predators.
Perhaps the schizophrenic actually served a purpose thousands of years ago.
Sounds to me that the schizophrenic still serves a purpose today. We’ve just evolved out of the need for them, but the genetic code is still there.
Perhaps the schizophrenic actually served a purpose thousands of years ago.
Whoa!
So, for every incident like this, there is always an opposite one because people are sinners. Even Jews sin. So, although you may enjoy slapping this article on your blog to push some sort of agenda that Christians hate Jews, I personally would like to defend the Christians who are practicing of their faith. These fellows were obviously NOT Christians by its definition so should not be applied. They were sinners who called themselves Christian and nothing more. IMO
Yeah, because a Jewish guy in a loving marriage top a Christian woman is obviously trying to push an anti-Christian agenda. Don’t be such a knee jerk.
The public face of Christianity is the face most people see. The “good” ones need to be more active in disspelling the image of the “bad” Christians. It’s up to you to prove they aren’t the true face of Christianity.
Hurling accusations at people who just repost copies of the news and claiming they are anti-christian is VERY anti-Christian and hurts the cause of Christianity.
yeah, so shut up or we’ll stone you!
“yeah, so shut up or we’ll stone you!”
can’t we smite him, instead?
One of the cognitive hazards for people around the world who still hold to a remnant tribal or clan identity (including Jews) is the tendency to see post-tribal people as likewise belonging to tribes. The English term “gentiles” and the Yiddish “goyim” – both of which mean “non-Jews” to Jews – are manifestations of this error.
Christianity is not genetic. It’s a belief system and nothing more – unlike Judaism there is no ethnic or tribal identity specific to it. So unless these subway punks adhere to religious practice, i.e. attend church regularly, they’re not Christians. By this definition I myself am not a Christian – I don’t believe, I don’t practice and I rarely attend religious services of any variety. My parents are Christians, my grandparents were Christian, but I am not.
It’s simple bigotry for PAD to attempt to group Christians in with these imbeciles. And given where the vast, vast majority of violent anti-semitism is occurring and advocated today (socialist states and Muslim states), his analysis is amazingly obtuse. Given that the Christian majority in this country has shown greater tolerance toward Jews than just about any other group of people in the history of the world, I’d guess there’s some psychological displacement process at work in PAD’s mind. Perhaps this story seems significant to PAD because it helps him affirm his pathological biases.
I apologize for not commenting earlier and thus causing some of the paranoiacs around here to speculate that I was using another name. This is my first post on this thread.
Oh yeah, and it’s nice that the Muslim kid helped out. Doesn’t quite make up for the whole 9/11 thing but every little bit helps.
It’s simple bigotry for PAD to attempt to group Christians in with these imbeciles.
But then
it’s nice that the Muslim kid helped out. Doesn’t quite make up for the whole 9/11 thing but every little bit helps.
What’s wrong with this picture?
These fellows were obviously NOT Christians by its definition so should not be applied.
By that claim, terrorists are not Muslims, even if they claim are such.
But, that doesn’t stop Christians and many others from labeling Islam a religion of hate, anger, and terror because of the actions of a few that claim to be Islamic.
In the end, you can’t have it both ways; you really don’t have the right to say who is and isn’t a Christian (or Muslim or any other faith).
So, there was a time delay on the kook commentary for this thread…?
Personally, as a Catholic this news sickens me. Peter, I know it’s too late to wish you a happy Hannukah, but I hope you had one and enjoy the rest of this holiday season. Also, I hope Ariel never personally experiences what these Jewish kids went through on the subway…
Bladestar wrote: The “good” ones need to be more active in disspelling the image of the “bad” Christians.
Just one problem with that. The “good” ones don’t get the publicity that these bozos got.
Given a choice about a congregation raising money to put a new roof on the local orphanage vs the subway story, which one do you think the news will go with?
It’s just proof of the old saying, “one bad apple spoils the bunch.”
BTW, the media was referring to these thugs as “christians” before this thread was even started.
Rich Lane wrote:
It’s simple bigotry for PAD to attempt to group Christians in with these imbeciles.
But then
it’s nice that the Muslim kid helped out. Doesn’t quite make up for the whole 9/11 thing but every little bit helps.
What’s wrong with this picture?
Apparently you haven’t read the Quran.
PAD demonizes as Christians people who were clearly not behaving in a “Christian” fashion. Islam, like Christianity – is purely a belief system. Which means it’s defined by its tenets. And Islam’s tenets are ugly.
PAD’s “muslim guy”, aka Hassan Askari, was extending Muslim-specific ethics to non-Muslims, which is very much NOT an Islamic way of behaving, since the Quran and Islamic tradition (unlike the New Testament) specify a system of ethics for dealing with people based on their religion and social status. Perhaps you should show Islam the minimal respect it deserves by actually reading the Quran, rather than ignorantly equating it with Christianity.
As I said, I’m not a Christian but I have read the New Testament and the Quran. The New Testament is probably the most important and humane text written by man prior to the Enlightenment. The Quran, on the other hand, is the collected ramblings of a paranoid schizophrenic sociopath. Only someone ignorant of both would equate the two.
Mohammed Atta’s behavior was consistent with the Quran. Hassan Askari’s behavior is consistent with contemporary western secular morality which was first expressed by Immanuel Kant, who worked to present a rational, secular justification for Christian morality.
Besides which I was joking, you moron.
You were joking but you also seem to think the joke is representative of the truth, so calling him a moron is questionable for several reasons.
I can’t honestly say I’ve read the Koran cover to cover but among those who have there is no unanimity at all in the idea that it legitimizes the actions of the 9/11 terrorists. You can selectively quote passages that would make such actions blasphemous in the eyes of Islam. You could also probably selectively quote passages that would support you position. Similar cherry picking has been used on the Bible to justify all manner of positions.
As for whether or not Hassan Askari was behaving as a proper Muslim, I can only say that I have personally seen many examples of Muslim generosity toward outsiders–in some situations it is almost embarrassing how well you are treated. It’s always been a bit of a puzzle to me how Muslims in general and Arabs in particular can be the most generous shirt off their back kind of folks one on one–but get a crowd of them going and the next thing you know it’s all “Kill the one with the Teddy bear!” and šhìŧ. Of course, as Christine points out, that’s what makes the news. A Muslim family taking in a Christian stranger in town and making sure he is treated as one of the family only better is not exactly stop the presses material.
Of course, your results may vary but it seems very simplistic to treat Mr. Askari as an aberration.
The Quran specifically calls on Muslims to wage war on non-believers. It is not at all vague or in any way unclear on the topic, and anyone who says otherwise is lying or ignorant. And yes I can certainly quote suras – and not that selectively – to validate my position.
There are over 100 passages in the Quran that specifically call for violence against non-believers. Go read it. A serious study (of the kind Muslims scholars engage in) requires years but the kind of cursory survey I’ve done will only take you a month or so. There are excellent translations available. It’s quite explicit. You may be shocked.
Here’s another little parable for PAD:
In the summer of 2001 a thirty-ish Jewish woman from New York named Lizzie Grubman ran over a bunch of “Christians” after uttering an anti-gentile epithet.
She yelled “white trash! white trash!” and then backed over a bunch of non-Jewish people on Long Island with a large SUV.
I know people in New York – Jewish and otherwise – who think “white trash” is an edgy, amusing slur alternative to “redneck”. Specifically, to them it means “rural, low-income white Christians”.
When Lizzie Grubman maimed a handful of non-Jews after uttering an anti-Christian epithet, I didn’t chalk it up to her Jewishness. I wasn’t concerned with her tribe or her religion. I don’t recall reading anything that put forward the conclusion that her Jewishness was the root cause. (Because that would have been idiotic.)
To paraphrase Dr. Freud: sometimes an áššhølë is just an áššhølë. Grubman is a narrow-minded spoiled idiot whose worldview is of no particular importance and should not be used to draw conclusions about other people, with the possible exception of her negligent parents.
Likewise those punks on the subway.
Did somebody hear a gnat?
According to Lingster, “The New Testament is probably the most important and humane text written by man prior to the Enlightenment. The Quran, on the other hand, is the collected ramblings of a paranoid schizophrenic sociopath.” As a former Christian I can tell you that Lingster’s characterization of the New Testament is based on a selective reading that ignores those passages which contract his personal biases.
For example, in the seventh chapter of the Gospel of Mark, Jesus criticizes Jews who fail to kill disobedient children. From Mark 7:9-11 (King James version): “And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death: But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.”
Furthermore, Jesus is portrayed as a racist in Mark’s Gospel. From Mark 7:25-28 (King James version): “For a certain woman, whose young daughter had an unclean spirit, heard of him, and came and fell at his feet: The woman was a Greek, a Syrophenician by nation; and she besought him that he would cast forth the devil out of her daughter. But Jesus said unto her, Let the children first be filled: for it is not meet to take the children’s bread, and to cast it unto the dogs. And she answered and said unto him, Yes, Lord: yet the dogs under the table eat of the children’s crumbs.”
That doesn’t sound very humane to me.
Lingster is also mischaracterizing the Koran, which exhorts the followers of Allah to fight those who oppress them, but not to make war against those who do not make war against them. From Chapter 2, Verse 190: “Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loves not transgressors.”
Moreover, the Koran makes clear that those who deliberately kidnap and harm civilians in time of war will go to Hëll.
In the pages of the various scriptures from the world’s various faiths one can generally find words to justify the worst behavior coexisting with calls to act as kind, compassionate, and good human beings. To rake Islam over the coals for certain ugly passages of scripture while ignoring similar ugliness in the New Testament of the Bible is nothing but irrational and ugly bigotry.
To paraphrase Dr. Freud: sometimes an áššhølë is just an áššhølë. Lingster is a narrow-minded and spoiled idiot.
For example, in the seventh chapter of the Gospel of Mark, Jesus criticizes Jews who fail to kill disobedient children.
Actually, the point he’s making is that the Pharasies (sp?) were substituting their own traditions for what had been Jewish Law.
Had Jesus actually advocated the execution of disobedient children I think it might have come up in the story of the prodigal son, which seems in fact to have the exact opposite message.
Bill, in that passage Jesus is saying that “Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death” is in fact God’s law. And he is criticizing the Pharisees for substituting their law for God’s law. By logical extension, then, Jesus in this passage is saying that disobedient children should be killed. At least according to the King James translation, anyway.
I’m not trying to wholly condemn Christianity, however, but merely to point out that it is unreasonable to dwell on specific passages of the Koran that advocate divisiveness and violence while ignoring passages in the Bible that do the same. I could just as easily quote passages in both the Koran and the Bible that advocate kindness and compassion.
Religion is a tool, like a hammer. Both can be used to create wonderful things, and both can be used for destructive ends.
For those criticizing PAD for using the “Christian” label on the attackers:
FYI practically every media story on this event used the “Christian” “Jew” and “Muslim” labels for the participants. (If I must, I can ferret out the links.)
Point being, if you are going to criticize PAD, then you should also rant against the media. Otherwise, it is evident that you are using this unfortunate event to promote your own agendas against PAD… which is remarkably similar to what you are accusing him of doing.
Apparently you haven’t read the Quran.
No, I haven’t, but then again, I don’t give a rat’s hairy ášš about the Quran or the Bible or the Talmud or the Manual of Festivus. It still boils down to you complaining about holding an entire group accountable for the actions of individuals and then turning around and judging an individual for the the actions of others who have a connection to a specific group.
Rationalize it all you want–it’s hypocrisy.
PAD demonizes as Christians people who were clearly not behaving in a “Christian” fashion.
No. I really didn’t. I reported the facts in a straightforward manner. The only reason I made specific mention of their being Christian was because they were quoted as howling that Jews had killed “their savior” on Chanukah. Everything else you’re reading into it is coming from, I suspect, your own agenda.
In the summer of 2001 a thirty-ish Jewish woman from New York named Lizzie Grubman ran over a bunch of “Christians” after uttering an anti-gentile epithet. She yelled “white trash! white trash!” and then backed over a bunch of non-Jewish people on Long Island with a large SUV.
I know people in New York – Jewish and otherwise – who think “white trash” is an edgy, amusing slur alternative to “redneck”. Specifically, to them it means “rural, low-income white Christians”.
I have never, in my life, encountered anyone who automatically associated the term “white trash” with Christianity. It is, and always has been, a socio-economic slur, a nastier version of “red neck.” Either you know really screwed up people (which wouldn’t surprise me) or you’re just fabricating for sake of argument (which also wouldn’t surprise me.)
When Lizzie Grubman maimed a handful of non-Jews after uttering an anti-Christian epithet, I didn’t chalk it up to her Jewishness.
That’s very generous of you, except, as noted, it wasn’t a case of a Jew uttering an anti-Christian epithet. It was a rich girl shouting at those whom she considered her econimic inferiors.
I wasn’t concerned with her tribe or her religion. I don’t recall reading anything that put forward the conclusion that her Jewishness was the root cause. (Because that would have been idiotic.)
Yes, and the reason it would have been idiotic is because “white trash” is only an anti-Christian slur in your mind. I can assure you that if she had said, “F- you, Jesus freaks,” it would have been portrayed as a hate crime.
To paraphrase Dr. Freud: sometimes an áššhølë is just an áššhølë.
I bow to your superior wisdom and personal experience in that department.
PAD
I have never, in my life, encountered anyone who automatically associated the term “white trash” with Christianity. It is, and always has been, a socio-economic slur, a nastier version of “red neck.” Either you know really screwed up people (which wouldn’t surprise me) or you’re just fabricating for sake of argument (which also wouldn’t surprise me.)
It is not, actually, a nastier version of “redneck”, at least when used by the rural populations that originated both terms. And the fact that you think so makes my point for me.
“Redneck” is simply slang for “rural person” or “farmer” and has only a very weak implicit negative connotation absent context – synonyms might include “good ol’ boy”, “country boy/girl”. “White trash” on the other hand is an indictment of character – it refers to a person of very poor and ignorant character, a layabout or shiftless person.
My experience with the term in Manhattan comes from when I was described as “white trash” by a Jewish co-worker (and friend) from Queens over lunch. I went ashen and said, “I can’t believe you just called me ‘white trash'”, because it’s a pretty grave insult. I got over it and a bunch of us, Jew and gentile, had a conversation about the term. The outcome was – as your ignorance of the term would indicate – that the Jews in the group thought of it as a funny and naughty way of saying “redneck”. I informed them that it was about as funny as “kike”, which is to say not funny at all.
Both terms – redneck and white trash – are used specifically to refer to rural white gentiles (Christians). If you google the term “Jewish redneck”, you will find a bunch of humor pages, because of the obviously funny contradiction implicit in that term.
So when Lizzie Grubman shouted at those people (before running them over) she was using an epithet that specifically described them as gentiles. It’s just as explicit as those thugs on the subway.
And of course it would have been bigoted to indict Jewishness as the culprit behind the behavior of someone who was just an idiot. (Although I briefly met her once and she seems nice in person.)
Lingster,
As a born Southerner who has lived around rednecks and white trash for large portions of his life…
You’re so full of $&!^ that I’d be amazed to see that your eyes weren’t brown. Your explaination of what those terms “really mean” (but only on Planet Lingster) had to be one of the dumbest things that I’ve read here in a looooong, looooonnnggggggg time.
Thanks for the laugh.
redneck has never been used to describe a religious affiliation in my neck of the southern woods. In fact, your stereotypical redneck is probably less likely to be a churchgoer than other Southerners.
(Wikipedia supports this- “Generally, there is a continuum from the stereotypical redneck (a derisive term) to the country person; yet there are differences. Rednecks typically are more libertine, especially in their personal lives, than other country brethren who tend towards social conservatism. In contrast to country people, stereotypical rednecks tend not to attend church, or do so infrequently. They also tend to use alcohol and gamble more than their church-going neighbors.”)
Similarly, White Trash has zero religious connotations. A white guy living in a tarpaper shack in the bayou might get nailed with the epithet whether he was a pious churchgoer, committed atheist or whatever. Can you cite any sources that say otherwise?
(BTW–how would Ms Grubman know what the religion of her victims was? They were going to a nightclub in the Hamptons. Jews don’t live in the Hamptons? Go to nightclubs?)
Doesn’t make much sense does it? Perhaps there is an explanation–you got your facts wrong. She did not refer to the people she was running over as “White trash”–it’s what she called the cop who told her to get her car out of the fire lane. As someone who was used to doing as she pleased and parking where she wanted, she took offense and called the cop a name clearly meant to display her economic advantage over him. Religion had zero to do with it, I suspect, barring any evidence you can bring to the contrary.
It is not, actually, a nastier version of “redneck”, at least when used by the rural populations that originated both terms. And the fact that you think so makes my point for me.
What point? You were claiming that Christians were synonymous with “white trash,” and now you’re claiming…well, God knows what, really.
Tell you what: Go find me a legitimate source that associates Christianity and the term “white trash.” Somewhere other than out of your own head. If you can find that, then maybe, MAYBE, you might have my interest. Until then, you’ve lost it.
PAD
Labels are nasty things. Redneck, white trash, or any other thing that you can think of. Now, I’ve used both terms in the heat of anger. The people I was talking about are truly not nice people, far worse than anybody around here, and I hope far worse than anyone that any of you have to deal with. However, as labels aren’t usually factual representations of who a person is, there’s generally a lot of wiggle room for interpretation. Therefore, I could, in fact call several non-Christian people by either of those labels.
” had to be one of the dumbest things that I’ve read here in a looooong, looooonnnggggggg time.”
Which, in itself, is quite a feat with some of the people PAD’s had posting around here on occasion.
Bill Mulligan:
…redneck has never been used to describe a religious affiliation in my neck of the southern woods. In fact, your stereotypical redneck is probably less likely to be a churchgoer than other Southerners.
I’ve already pointed out that Jews who have adopted both terms use them as descriptors exclusively for gentiles, the Christian part is incidental. Not being Christian themselves, most Jews are no more aware of the various Christian sects and rites than are most Christians able to explain the distinction between Kohens and Levis (not the bluejeans).
…you got your facts wrong. She did not refer to the people she was running over as “White trash”–it’s what she called the cop who told her to get her car out of the fire lane…
There was no cop present. Check YOUR facts – it was a bouncer. And it doesn’t matter WHO she was directing it at – she ran over a bunch of people after screaming what she considered to be an ethnic epithet and flying into a drunken rage. I maintain that her behavior was just as much an indictment of Jews and Judaism as the behavior of these thugs on the subway was of Christians and Christianity – none at all and it’s bigoted and narrow-minded to even suggest it.
Jerry Chandler:
…Your explaination of what those terms “really mean” (but only on Planet Lingster) had to be one of the dumbest things that I’ve read here in a looooong, looooonnnggggggg time.
Just saying it’s wrong don’t make it so, Jerry. Why don’t you provide alternative definitions if you think they’re wrong?
PAD:
Go find me a legitimate source that associates Christianity and the term “white trash.
I’m not claiming it means “Christian”, Peter, I’m saying that for many Jews it indicates a subset of “gentile”. Please remember that context has a lot to do with the meaning of a phrase. For example, there is a term in Yiddish, “goyisher kop”, which you’re probably familiar with. I think it literally means “the gentile head/mind”. Colloquially it means “stupid gentile” with the implicit assertion that gentiles are stupid. So let’s be frank and admit that Jews keep a few anti-gentile grenades in their rhetorical armory, OK?
My assertion is that some Jews use “white trash” for the same broad purpose as their grandparents did when saying “goyisher kop”.
It is natural and normal for people who have a tribal or very tight, insular identity to look on outsiders as inferior in capability or moral worth. Obviously the U.S. has been very good at assimilating people and making them feel that they are a part of a single, very broad identity, but it doesn’t succeed equally well in all people.
You went out of your way to repeatedly describe the bad guys as Christians because, I suspect, you believe Christians are bad people. That’s the subtext I read into this article. You don’t use the more specific term “Catholics” – which is how the attackers describe themselves in news articles I’ve seen – I presume because you don’t care about or don’t understand such distinctions.
I’m not claiming it means “Christian”, Peter, I’m saying that for many Jews it indicates a subset of “gentile”
You are wrong. You are drowning in wrongness. Monumentally wrong.
You went out of your way to repeatedly describe the bad guys as Christians because, I suspect, you believe Christians are bad people.
Uh…huh. You realize I’m married to a Christian and my youngest daughter is Christian, right? No? Sense yourself sinking in ignorance over your head?
That’s the subtext I read into this article. You don’t use the more specific term “Catholics” – which is how the attackers describe themselves in news articles I’ve seen – I presume because you don’t care about or don’t understand such distinctions.
And now you’re just talking out your ášš. I didn’t use any specific terms because the news article *I* read simply described them as Christians without distinguishing. To be specific, by the way, my wife and daughter are Catholic. Your assertion that I can’t distinguish between Catholic and Protestant, Baptist and Methodist…it’s steeped in the same gargantuan ignorance that has informed all your “opinions” on this subject.
What you need to do at this point is acknowledge your monumental stupidity in this matter and back away slowly.
PAD